I'm tired of all the blame going to Herm. Yes, Herm had his share of blunders but the amount of hate that he gets is ridiculous. The biggest mistake that Herm made was underestimating the impact of Jared Allen. And I did too at the time. In 2007, the Chiefs almost had a top 10 defense despite their terrible offense. We know what happened in 2008. But we are quick to forget the defense of 2007. I'm not saying the Herm was a great coach, but he is not as bad as some here believe.
Just to irritate you, lets take a look at what might have been if Herm had stuck around.
-First the acquisition of Cassell never happens. Herm sticks with Thigpen and Gailey runs the system that worked well in the latter half of the season.
-The switch to the 3-4 never happens and the Chiefs continue to run a 4-3 defense.
-Most likely, no notable free agents are picked up.
-Tony Gonzalez remains with the Chiefs.
-The draft rolls around and Herm takes the safe route as usual and picks the following players:
1. Aaron Curry
2. Everette Brown (Herm likes this pick bc of the desperate need for a pass rusher to replace Jared Allen who was lost in 07 and the success of another small DE Dwight Freeney with the Colts where his role model Tony Dungy coached.)
3. Antione Caldwell (Mal Moore leadership award winner is drafted here) Herm kinda player. And can play all line positions but primarily C or G.
4. Louis Murphy (Herm picks a wide out for the needed depth and Murphy provide some speed.)
5. Jasper Brinkley (Tough middle linebacker probably starts.)
6. Andrew Gardner (RT tackle pushes or replaces McIntosh)
7. Captain Munnerlyn (CB and returner)
7. Ricky Jean-Francois (depth at DT)
7. Ryan Succop K
And to top it off. After speaking with Tony Dungy about Michael Vick, who has been mentoring Vick, Herm trusts Dungy and decides to give Vick a shot at backing up Tyler Thigpen.
Would all of this happened... probably not, but it is interesting to think about what might have been if Herm and Carl would have stayed. Again, I don't think Herm is great and I definitely don't think Carl was good, but I do wonder what might have happened. I do like the draft above much better than our current one, and I do like that we still would have Tony G. [Reply]
Originally Posted by The Bad Guy:
God you grade on a curve.
DeMorrio Williams is not a solid player. He's not even close. He's a fringe player at best.
Jarrad Page can't tackle. Leggett had about 3 good games, and Dorsey doesn't even have a position anymore.
Mike Cox a very good player? Since when? You like to throw around the very good label like it's a common thing.
My god. I'm done arguing with you.
You want to know who has a core of really good young players? Look at the Chargers, Falcons, Cardinals.
In terms of foundation, the Chiefs probably have one of the worst in the NFL.
So we should cut all players that aren't pro bowlers. And we should give up on all players who don't show potential in one year. Got it. The fact that you think there are only 3 players worth salvaging says a lot.
And the fact that you are comparing the Chiefs to teams like the Falcons and Cardinals also says a lot. Marty Schottenheimer's team went 4-12 during their rebuild. The Falcons took several years to rebuild as well--Matt Ryan was the final piece. Most of those players on that team are players that are past the 3-year hump.
You're so desperate to find every last flaw with the previous organization that you are starting to set ridiculous standards. It's funny that everybody outside of KC thinks the Chiefs have a bright young team except you. [Reply]
Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501:
So we should cut all players that aren't pro bowlers. And we should give up on all players who don't show potential in one year. Got it. The fact that you think there are only 3 players worth salvaging says a lot.
And the fact that you are comparing the Chiefs to teams like the Falcons and Cardinals also says a lot. Marty Schottenheimer's team went 4-12 during their rebuild. The Falcons took several years to rebuild as well--Matt Ryan was the final piece. Most of those players on that team are players that are past the 3-year hump.
You're so desperate to find every last flaw with the previous organization that you are starting to set ridiculous standards. It's funny that everybody outside of KC thinks the Chiefs have a bright young team except you.
I think the Chiefs have a bright future based on the people in charge, not the talent they have. I would also love for you to find fans outside of the Chiefs to name 8 good young players they have on the roster. I'll guarantee to you that they couldn't do it.
The Falcons took several years to rebuild? Since freaking when? Their rebuild started last year. Were they rebuilding with Chris Redmon? Matt Ryan the final piece? They hired a new GM, new HC and were insanely smart with all their personel decisions. That rebuild took exactly one year. They got a LT, QB, RB, MLB all in one draft. Teams rebuild all the time in the NFL. They show progress. The Chiefs regressed during their rebuild. They got worse as games went on, and the coaching mistakes were just awful.
You again are putting words in my mouth. I said the Chiefs have 3 really good players from Herm. That doesn't mean I'm gutting the entire roster. I'm also not giving out the really good label because the way you talk, this team should have been a lot better than it is if it has all these "pieces". You know who that reflects on then? Herm.
We should not cut all the players that aren't Pro Bowlers. We also shouldn't sit here and put on rose colored glasses and truly think that players like Mike Cox have established themselves as being "really good".
Ridiculous standards? Maybe you should stop lowering yours to suit your arguments. [Reply]
Originally Posted by The Bad Guy:
I think the Chiefs have a bright future based on the people in charge, not the talent they have. I would also love for you to find fans outside of the Chiefs to name 8 good young players they have on the roster. I'll guarantee to you that they couldn't do it.
The Falcons took several years to rebuild? Since freaking when? Their rebuild started last year. Were they rebuilding with Chris Redmon? Matt Ryan the final piece? They hired a new GM, new HC and were insanely smart with all their personel decisions. That rebuild took exactly one year. They got a LT, QB, RB, MLB all in one draft. Teams rebuild all the time in the NFL. They show progress. The Chiefs regressed during their rebuild. They got worse as games went on, and the coaching mistakes were just awful.
You again are putting words in my mouth. I said the Chiefs have 3 really good players from Herm. That doesn't mean I'm gutting the entire roster. I'm also not giving out the really good label because the way you talk, this team should have been a lot better than it is if it has all these "pieces". You know who that reflects on then? Herm.
We should not cut all the players that aren't Pro Bowlers. We also shouldn't sit here and put on rose colored glasses and truly think that players like Mike Cox have established themselves as being "really good".
Ridiculous standards? Maybe you should stop lowering yours to suit your arguments.
Dude, the Hermophiles are relentless in their defense of Herm..lol..they live in a land of delusion.
Just ignore him and enjoy a Herm free year :-) [Reply]
Originally Posted by The Bad Guy:
I think the Chiefs have a bright future based on the people in charge, not the talent they have. I would also love for you to find fans outside of the Chiefs to name 8 good young players they have on the roster. I'll guarantee to you that they couldn't do it.
The Falcons took several years to rebuild? Since freaking when? Their rebuild started last year. Were they rebuilding with Chris Redmon? Matt Ryan the final piece? They hired a new GM, new HC and were insanely smart with all their personel decisions. That rebuild took exactly one year. They got a LT, QB, RB, MLB all in one draft. Teams rebuild all the time in the NFL. They show progress. The Chiefs regressed during their rebuild. They got worse as games went on, and the coaching mistakes were just awful.
You again are putting words in my mouth. I said the Chiefs have 3 really good players from Herm. That doesn't mean I'm gutting the entire roster. I'm also not giving out the really good label because the way you talk, this team should have been a lot better than it is if it has all these "pieces". You know who that reflects on then? Herm.
We should not cut all the players that aren't Pro Bowlers. We also shouldn't sit here and put on rose colored glasses and truly think that players like Mike Cox have established themselves as being "really good".
Ridiculous standards? Maybe you should stop lowering yours to suit your arguments.
While I agree with you in this debate, overall, I'd have to disagree with you that the Falcons rebuilt in one year.
They did add Ryan, Baker, and Lofton in last year's draft and Michael Turner in free agency, but they were building around Michael Vick before, and guys like Roddy White, Brian Finneman, Jamaal Anderson, Jonathon Babineaux, etc., were in place before the draft last year.
That roster only has a handful of players with more than 6 years in the league.
That is the very picture of a team that rebuilt over years. [Reply]
Originally Posted by The Bad Guy:
I think the Chiefs have a bright future based on the people in charge, not the talent they have. I would also love for you to find fans outside of the Chiefs to name 8 good young players they have on the roster. I'll guarantee to you that they couldn't do it.
The Falcons took several years to rebuild? Since freaking when? Their rebuild started last year. Were they rebuilding with Chris Redmon? Matt Ryan the final piece? They hired a new GM, new HC and were insanely smart with all their personel decisions. That rebuild took exactly one year. They got a LT, QB, RB, MLB all in one draft. Teams rebuild all the time in the NFL. They show progress. The Chiefs regressed during their rebuild. They got worse as games went on, and the coaching mistakes were just awful.
You again are putting words in my mouth. I said the Chiefs have 3 really good players from Herm. That doesn't mean I'm gutting the entire roster. I'm also not giving out the really good label because the way you talk, this team should have been a lot better than it is if it has all these "pieces". You know who that reflects on then? Herm.
We should not cut all the players that aren't Pro Bowlers. We also shouldn't sit here and put on rose colored glasses and truly think that players like Mike Cox have established themselves as being "really good".
Ridiculous standards? Maybe you should stop lowering yours to suit your arguments.
I can understand your point on Mike Cox--I personally think he's good, but fine... that's up for debate. Apart from that, what do you disagree with? There are a lot of good young players on the Chiefs (about 20) with less than 3 years of experience who have a LOT of upside. That's what building a good young foundation is about. A few of them are already there. A lot of them flashed potential and have the upside to be real good starters, maybe in 1-2 years. And a lot of them are going to have the potential to be very good backups, which is an extremely important part of building a strong team foundation.
And I never said all the pieces are there right now. I said there is a good base with potential to be there very quickly. The Chiefs are already a huge step in the right direction. Good teams build through youth, and then use veterans to fill in the gaps. You paint the roster left behind as being a useless mess, and yet with little veteran presence and in spite of numerous gameday coaching mistakes, the Chiefs could have and arguably should have won at least half of the games in the second half of the season. Maybe our youth isn't as bad and ill-prepared as you might think. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Reerun_KC:
I am just glad that the hopelessness of the last 3 years are gone...
We have minimal talent to show from some one that was supposed to have a keen eye for talent...
We dont have a foundation, nor a talented roster. its going to take a GM and HC 2-3 years to fix the crap Herm left this roster in....
This is the argument I'm trying to make. Carl Peterson made some really, really, really lousy decisions at the end of the Vermeil era and the beginning of the Herm Edwards era. You can argue that Herm Edwards was a large part of that too, but there are enough reports to suggest that it was largely Carl Peterson who outright refused the rebuild and youth movement in spite of Herm's insistence to do so. Peterson's refusal to rebuild as soon as Vermeil retired set this organization back at least 5 years. So no matter who came in as the head coach in 2006, this team was set to implode in 2007 anyway. There is no way that a team with that many 30+ year old veterans, and less than a handful of good players under 30, wouldn't implode. It was like putting band-aids on the Titanic to fix a sinking ship. Look, I am not an Obama fan. But blaming Herm for trainwrecks that happened well before he was coach is like blaming Obama for the horrible economy he inherited. That's a fair analogy. Yes, there are LOTS of things to blame him for... but too often he gets the blame for the enormous messes Peterson made.
That brings us today. You say it will take 2-3 years to fix this thing. And I agree with that. But without the moves we made in 2008, it would have taken at least 4-5 years. We purged the roster of a lot of old veterans weighing down our salary cap. We gave some young guys who have some decent upside a lot of real game reps. As a result of 2008, we have a young roster with some bright young players and probably one of the best cap situations in the league. We are absolutely in 100 times better shape than we were in 2007 because of things we did in 2008. [Reply]
Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501:
This is the argument I'm trying to make. Carl Peterson made some really, really, really lousy decisions at the end of the Vermeil era and the beginning of the Herm Edwards era. You can argue that Herm Edwards was a large part of that too, but there are enough reports to suggest that it was largely Carl Peterson who outright refused the rebuild and youth movement in spite of Herm's insistence to do so. Peterson's refusal to rebuild as soon as Vermeil retired set this organization back at least 5 years. So no matter who came in as the head coach in 2006, this team was set to implode in 2007 anyway. There is no way that a team with that many 30+ year old veterans, and less than a handful of good players under 30, wouldn't implode. It was like putting band-aids on the Titanic to fix a sinking ship. Look, I am not an Obama fan. But blaming Herm for trainwrecks that happened well before he was coach is like blaming Obama for the horrible economy he inherited. That's a fair analogy. Yes, there are LOTS of things to blame him for... but too often he gets the blame for the enormous messes Peterson made.
That brings us today. You say it will take 2-3 years to fix this thing. And I agree with that. But without the moves we made in 2008, it would have taken at least 4-5 years. We purged the roster of a lot of old veterans weighing down our salary cap. We gave some young guys who have some decent upside a lot of real game reps. As a result of 2008, we have a young roster with some bright young players and probably one of the best cap situations in the league. We are absolutely in 100 times better shape than we were in 2007 because of things we did in 2008.
And to reiterate, we have better coaches who can get a lot more out of the young talent that we have. And who will put these guys in a better position to win. I don't want people to doubt for a second that I think Haley is far better equipped than Herm to win football games with the talent he's given. [Reply]
