Keep in mind that the movie only covers the first half of the book.

As for Paul's appearance, IMO he should look more like Leto than Jessica. There is a line later in the book that describes him as looking "like a ghost image of Duke Leto," after he has aged somewhat and spent his days withering in the desert. Had it been up to me, I would have had one actor portray both characters; easy enough to do with aging makeup/prosthetics/lifts.

They definitely fucked up Gurney. Frankly, I think Barden would have been a better Gurney and Brolin a better Stilgar. Hell, Christian Bale would have been awesome as Stilgar.

Like I've said before, I enjoyed it and I recommend it. It's far from perfect, but compared to the odious Lynch offering and the cheap, cheesy Sci-Fi Channel crap, it's Citizen Kane.

The blu ray drops next week. I'm looking forward to watching it again with a more critical eye.
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{hits the halfway point}

Holy shit.

New submission for Washington’s football team name.

The Washington Freman. Damn. These guys are bad ass.
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So that was sort of a Stephen King “and then it was over” and ending.

Feels like the last 2-3 chapters needed more time. It all got really hurried and strangely flat towards the end. The development of Alia and return of Gurney seemed like they could’ve gotten more attention, as well as what went on with Hawat, who’s routinely referred to as potentially the most exceptional Mentat in generations but we see little/no evidence of it.

Just seems like the last 1/4 left a lot of meat on the bones and took a little starch out of it.
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Finished Messiah.

Didn't dislike it, but it seems like an epilogue more than a self-contained story. Seems a lot of effort for about half a novel that largely just moves a few pieces here and there. I think the idea that it casts a new light on the 'dark side' of being a Messiah figure is a bit overblown as Paul was just as torn through most of the original story. It demonstrates the impact of the Jihad he was trying to avoid, but again, that was all alluded to in the original book as well.

It just seemed like the sort of thing 3 or 4 chapters at the end of the original could've accomplished. Almost as though he sat down to write a book, ended up realizing he wanted to write the 3rd book but needed to fill in the gap somehow to get there so he added the 2nd book after the fact to move the story forward just a tick to where he wanted it to be.

Unfortunately I can't find a good source for the Paul of Dune or other 'interim' stories to get them to my Kindle. Anybody know of a good spot? I wonder if my kindle unlimited subscription will have them while I still have my 3 free months.
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Well sure, he's torn, but so what? Billions of people are being killed in his name by his fanatical devotees who would stop doing it if he commanded them to stop doing it. The Fremen in Messiah make the Sardaukar look like the cops from Reno 911. Giving him a pass is sort of like saying Hitler was okay because he loved his dog.

As for the kindle thing, I have no idea. When it comes to reading, I'm an old fart and only do actual physical books.
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I just don't think I needed it spelled out.

I felt like we knew at the end of Dune that billions were going to die. It was a Jihad across the known universe. He lamented the 'dark path' a dozen different times before he 'saw' that it was inescapable by the end. Did you finish Dune thinking the Freman were going to create a Utopia and live happily ever after? I certainly didn't - I wrapped that book knowing full well that a LOT of people were gonna die in Paul's name w/ the Atreides banners flying overhead.

Like I said - I just don't think Messiah changed anything. Give him a pass, don't give him a pass - I'm cool with either approach. Was he an unfortunate tool of a grand design or was he complicit or even responsible for all those deaths? I dunno - and unfortunately I don't believe Messiah does anything to answer it either. We STILL don't know how reliable a narrator Paul is or the depths of his prescience because the book takes great pains to make it as scattershot as possible.

I ended Messiah with the same view of Paul, the Jihad, the entire concept of the Kwisatz Haderach and divine plans as I had going into it. The book could've been more or it could've been less. It could've made more clear what actual agency he had in all this or it could've dispensed with most of the 'torment' and given us just a few extra chapters elsewhere.

It ended in a mushy middle that ultimately didn't accomplish anything that I could see apart from a bit of fan service.
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Simply put, I just hated the way the Atreides went from being the Starks in the first book to the galactic taliban in the second. The overpowering religious zealotry was also very off putting for me; I don't like it in my science fiction any more than I do in real life. As things got weirder and weirder, I basically quit caring about the central characters and what happened to them. It was the beginning of a steep decline that, for me, started with my favorite book of all time and ended midway through the fourth book, which was pure shit.

That's why I enjoyed the prequel books co-written by Herbert's son so much, despite their flaws. The Atreides were still the Atreides, and they did Atreides things.
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And maybe I just read the first one differently than you did - possibly having been hardened into a cynic through life and the anti-hero era of television.

I actually texted the person that put me on the series about 2/3 of the way in and said ‘man, he’s going HARD into the religious idolatry’

I see what you’re saying regarding Leto - he was a truly noble figure from the jump. With Paul I felt a pretty hard shift in tone shorty after the fight with Jamis and Jessica’s test.

I just finished the first book absolutely certain that galactic taliban (right down to the Jihad Paul conceded was inevitable) was EXACTLY what they would become. Their motives were more ‘pure’ than the Harkonnens, but hey, that’s what the Taliban says as well.

It felt like Herbert telegraphed this particular ‘shift’ far sooner than Messiah.
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Keep in mind, I first read these books when I was in high school, 40 years ago.
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Right.

Like I said - you probably just read the original with a less jaundiced eye.

When I specifically noted the lack of moral ambiguity in the first 1/3 of the book it was because I've become attuned to it; almost trained to look for it in books, movies and television.

And by the end I think there was plenty of it. What remained was Paul's commitment to doing what he believed was right - but between the lines it was almost impossible to escape that A) He gave up on his ideal path and B) 'right' for some has dire consequences for others.

In many ways I envy someone that could've read it through a less cynical lense.
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There's a two year gap between the conclusion of the first part (also, the end of the movie) and the beginning of the second part. Obviously Paul goes through some serious, life-altering changes during this time, and as you've previously mentioned, the book does somewhat lazily gloss over that. It is, of course, logical that an angry child, traumatized by so much personal loss, taken in by a band of zealot savages and regularly engaging in violent acts would experience significant personality changes. I just never really thought about that when I first read it.

I think it's pretty obvious Leto would not have approved of the man Paul became. I assume lots of Leto-types fell to Fremen blades during the jihad.

You've actually forced me to reexamine Dune quite a bit. I appreciate that, although the teenager buried deep inside me thinks you kind of suck. :-)
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I think Leto would appreciate Paul's attempts to do what he thinks is right. Hell, even Leto noted that they conquered and kept Caladan through "Sea and Air power" and a great deal of his benevolence towards the Fremen was strategic and pragmatic.

Leto certainly had an imperialist streak of his own. And I think he'd have mostly been puzzled by Paul's prescience (though his experiences with Jessica may have tempered that).

I think Leto would've likely justified a great deal of what Paul did as most fathers would. If you squint you can square it with Leto's moral compass. But it requires more insight into the reliability of Paul as a narrator than we (I) have to this point.

But to your second point - yeah, I don't think there's any question that a whole slew of noble men died in the Jihad. If tens of billions fell, at least a few of them were bound to have been chosen honor over their life.
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I don't believe Leto would have ever bought into the religious aspect of it.

Hell, it was made clear in the book that the Fremen were simpletons duped into accepting Paul and Jessica through Bene Gesserit subterfuge, which occurred on many other worlds as well. I believe the line was "these people have been beautifully prepared for us."
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But even that I found fascinating because it again made me ask about the narrator.

Was Jessica right? Did the Bene Gesserit 'advance team' (I don't recall what they were called) really prime the fremen? Or was it a legit legend passed down through the ages?

Was EVERYTHING a Bene Gesserit scheme? If so, are we to believe that Bene Gesserit training combined with a 'pure' bloodline is what led to a borderline omnipotent being? Or was he a legit messianic figure? I don't think the book is closed (at least not in Dune) on it being a result of legitimate divine providence and perhaps Jessica's read is just a little off.

Was it a little of column A and a little of Column B? Just in talking about it a bit it makes me realize more and more why this book is so revered. I mean the world building in a mere 600 odd pages is exceptional. But it does leave so much unanswered that it's a small wonder there's been a dozen or so legitimate novels and dozen more short stories to come out of the universe.
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IIRC they were called the Missionera Protectiva or something similar. Basically they were BG advance agents, and went to different planets planting the "messiah and his mom" story. Yes, the whole thing was a BG breeding plot, which obviously blew up in their faces. As you put it, he was a borderline omnipotent being who cloaked himself in the messiah crap, and then seemingly started to believe it.
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