Originally Posted by Ragged Robin:
Only casuals hated it. I'm talking before (the first) "next gen" 2008 version. Once you take out vision cone you take out any remotely realistic way of playing defense as well as an absolutely defining way of playing offense. This is magnified 10 fold in multiplayer.
In real life, a shit QB will stare down a receiver before passing. Translate this in-game, the human player will keep the cone on the player they intend on passing to throughout the dropback so the defender will simply jump the route or slide the safety over. Just like in real life, this leads to cat-and-mouse so more advanced players will hold the vision cone (ie the where the qb is "facing") at the middle of the field to freeze the safety while going through the progression with their actual eyes, then at the last second move it over and release, giving no clue to the defense as to where you are going with the football.
The biggest problem with its implementation was that it should have a maximum radius cap of like 25% of the field (the 90+ AWR guys in game would just have the entire field be covered which is retarded). Super high accuracy ratings also made the cone a non-factor, imo accuracy should be SEVERELY affected if thrown to a receiver not in the cone. This is the same in real life where a QB does not set his feet properly and their mechanics are out of whack when throwing.
As it is now it's just like LOL DROPBACK WHO CARES X/Y/A TO THROW AT ANY RECEIVER AT ANY POINT ALL WITH THE SAME ACCURACY. Completely asinine and arcade and lacking any depth in gameplay.
With the amount of time I have put into practice mode & the 'lab' in order to break top 100, I'm pretty sure I dont qualify as a 'casual'. Madden is not marketed as a SIM football game; its 110% arcade. The vision cone does nothing to represent realism, other than show you who the QB may be targeting. BackBreaker's QB idea was better than the cone, and that still sucked. QB's read coverages more so than just a receiver, which is why there are route concepts that put receivers at different depth levels, but still in the same area of the field- so the QB doesnt have to change footwork, etc. Maybe make the defensive camera angle 'flip', so they cant see the receivers routes behind them, so kids cant run around with a speedy MLB and cover the entire field?. Anyway, the whole idea was dumb because it darkened out the rest of the field, which is just silly. You can put receivers literally on the sidelines, and still see them from shotgun while looking straight ahead IRL.
If they wanted the game to be more SIM, they should start with fixing the physics engine so the OL/DL interaction is much more realistic because it lacks momentum. Its like a wrestling match- they just lock up and release. The defensive AI is just shit as well. Cant match up my best corner vs their #1 receiver anymore? Is this pop warner or something? From there they need to work on the god damn playbooks. The defense needs a tiered approach to playcalling- like how it was in APF2K8. Alignment call first, line stunt/slant, then coverage behind it. The offensive play books are all over the place. Make the user create their own because every NFL team runs the same formations and universal passing concepts as the other.. let us choose what we want to run.
EA is a long way away from fixing a lot of this shit, which is why I am PRAYING 2K drops this game to force them to step their game up. [Reply]
Originally Posted by KILLER_CLOWN:
I think Madden will either put up or shut up, probably the latter.
madden will never put up, they will shut everyone up by just outspending everyone else. If they had kept competition between the 2, Madden would be in the situation that NBA Live is. APF was such an amazing game that lacked features, it was strickly an online football game (it was always their target audience for some reason), and that was probably a bad choice, but the gameplay was so much better then Madden 05 or NFL2K5.
Anyways, all we can do is wait and see what this montana football is all about. everythign is coming from the bay area as far as their motion capture and thats where the VC (2k's sports development company) and 2K offices are located.. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Aspengc8:
With the amount of time I have put into practice mode & the 'lab' in order to break top 100, I'm pretty sure I dont qualify as a 'casual'.
Originally Posted by Aspengc8:
Madden is not marketed as a SIM football game; its 110% arcade.
This is the problem. Almost a decade ago it was pretty close to being a simulation and has been veered well off since then.
Originally Posted by Aspengc8:
The vision cone does nothing to represent realism, other than show you who the QB may be targeting.
That's exactly the point which is completely realistic and crucial to how football in general is played.
Originally Posted by Aspengc8:
QB's read coverages more so than just a receiver, which is why there are route concepts that put receivers at different depth levels, but still in the same area of the field- so the QB doesnt have to change footwork, etc.
This is the exact same in real life as it is with the cone. The QB FACES an angle of the field and that's the only thing the defense can tell. They could improve this so that the cone is only shown to the offensive player but directly correlates to how the in game model is facing.
Originally Posted by Aspengc8:
Anyway, the whole idea was dumb because it darkened out the rest of the field, which is just silly. You can put receivers literally on the sidelines, and still see them from shotgun while looking straight ahead IRL.
It did not darken out the rest of the field, accuracy was just slightly affected (depending on THA rating) if you didn't throw to someone who was inside the cone. Like I said before, it wasn't perfect and had critical flaws but the general mechanics was there. If you know anything about throwing mechanics, you know that you have to step TOWARDS the receiver you are throwing to, if your base is completely not angled towards the throwing lane your mechanics and accuracy is way off. Throwing to the right side of the field isn't much of a big deal since you're facing that side by default anyway unless you're throwing to the flat but this is magnified when you're throwing to the backside [Reply]
Originally Posted by kcxiv:
madden will never put up, they will shut everyone up by just outspending everyone else. If they had kept competition between the 2, Madden would be in the situation that NBA Live is. APF was such an amazing game that lacked features, it was strickly an online football game (it was always their target audience for some reason), and that was probably a bad choice, but the gameplay was so much better then Madden 05 or NFL2K5.
Anyways, all we can do is wait and see what this montana football is all about. everythign is coming from the bay area as far as their motion capture and thats where the VC (2k's sports development company) and 2K offices are located..
Sooner or later they have to run out of money, especially if the competition is taking the lions share. [Reply]
Originally Posted by New World Order:
Without the NFL license this will never happen.
Read through the thread, rumor is that its got it.
Not to mention, it wont take much to obliterate Madden. People are sick of the same game over and over again crap. 2k WILL make a better playing game, license or not. Count on it. Since it will be on PC there will be mods out in a week to convert it to NFL if it has to come to that. [Reply]
This is the problem. Almost a decade ago it was pretty close to being a simulation and has been veered well off since then.
That's exactly the point which is completely realistic and crucial to how football in general is played.
This is the exact same in real life as it is with the cone. The QB FACES an angle of the field and that's the only thing the defense can tell. They could improve this so that the cone is only shown to the offensive player but directly correlates to how the in game model is facing.
It did not darken out the rest of the field, accuracy was just slightly affected (depending on THA rating) if you didn't throw to someone who was inside the cone. Like I said before, it wasn't perfect and had critical flaws but the general mechanics was there. If you know anything about throwing mechanics, you know that you have to step TOWARDS the receiver you are throwing to, if your base is completely not angled towards the throwing lane your mechanics and accuracy is way off. Throwing to the right side of the field isn't much of a big deal since you're facing that side by default anyway unless you're throwing to the flat but this is magnified when you're throwing to the backside
Its a gimmick pure and simple, just like the button mash fumble garbage. There are other ways to implement realism, if thats what you are after. You dont need a vision cone, have them use momentum like 2K did. One of the sticks would move feet position (middle of plant foot facing target area) and voila, realism solved. Don't need a radar cone to highlight anything though. Also have defensive camera flip or trail the user player, and use a stick to swivel vision left or right to read if any routes are coming into their area. Then its realistic. There's just way too much going on IRL for them to translate it all into a game. They dont even have the drop depth correct on 90% of the routes in the game. Madden receivers dont even plant or stem their routes to get off the line. Work on that instead of a damn 'vision cone' for realism. [Reply]
My biggest complaint with the Madden franchise is that they chose online play over franchise mode. Franchise mode isn't even playable anymore now. My friends and I used to get 10-15 years into franchise mode playing against each other and now I can't even make it past a year because it's fucking worthless. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Dicky McElephant:
My biggest complaint with the Madden franchise is that they chose online play over franchise mode. Franchise mode isn't even playable anymore now. My friends and I used to get 10-15 years into franchise mode playing against each other and now I can't even make it past a year because it's ****ing worthless.
Unfortunately its all I have for next gen. I should have never traded my 360 in.. NCAA was so much better. Its almost like they were developed by two different groups at EA :-)
Its the only way I can get my football fix. I played up through college and a few years of semi-pro/minor league (hate those terms), so I need my fix now that I'm getting older. Madden can be fixed, and I think EA can do it, and will have to if JM16 is what were are expecting. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Dicky McElephant:
My biggest complaint with the Madden franchise is that they chose online play over franchise mode. Franchise mode isn't even playable anymore now. My friends and I used to get 10-15 years into franchise mode playing against each other and now I can't even make it past a year because it's ****ing worthless.
So true. There was a year where they started removing features from franchise mode. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Aspengc8:
Unfortunately its all I have for next gen. I should have never traded my 360 in.. NCAA was so much better. Its almost like they were developed by two different groups at EA :-)
Its the only way I can get my football fix. I played up through college and a few years of semi-pro/minor league (hate those terms), so I need my fix now that I'm getting older. Madden can be fixed, and I think EA can do it, and will have to if JM16 is what were are expecting.
I wanna say that NCAA 2013 was the last good year of that game. 2014 they switched to the new recruiting and it got retarded. That's not to say that NCAA as a game didn't have it's faults. Recruiting was almost always broken. [Reply]
Originally Posted by KILLER_CLOWN:
Sooner or later they have to run out of money, especially if the competition is taking the lions share.
there is no way for them to have competition when they are competing wit themselves, even another unlicensed football game will NEVER compete. The NFL is to powerful. People are sheep, they will pay extra even if its crap for just the logo. Its been proven time and time again. Peopels till buy 200 dollar Nike's just because Jordan, Kobe or Lebron's name is on them. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Aspengc8:
Its a gimmick pure and simple, just like the button mash fumble garbage. There are other ways to implement realism, if thats what you are after. You dont need a vision cone, have them use momentum like 2K did. One of the sticks would move feet position (middle of plant foot facing target area) and voila, realism solved. Don't need a radar cone to highlight anything though. Also have defensive camera flip or trail the user player, and use a stick to swivel vision left or right to read if any routes are coming into their area. Then its realistic. There's just way too much going on IRL for them to translate it all into a game. They dont even have the drop depth correct on 90% of the routes in the game. Madden receivers dont even plant or stem their routes to get off the line. Work on that instead of a damn 'vision cone' for realism.
Yes, a critical mechanic that is crucial in real life football is clearly a gimmick and making receiver animations stem their routes will definitely bring more realism. :-) [Reply]
Originally Posted by Ragged Robin:
Yes, a critical mechanic that is crucial in real life football is clearly a gimmick and making receiver animations stem their routes will definitely bring more realism. :-)
You act like having the stupid QB cone is the only way to use a look off/eye direction mechanic.
This game is going to be the future, not the past~ [Reply]
Originally Posted by Ragged Robin:
Yes, a critical mechanic that is crucial in real life football is clearly a gimmick and making receiver animations stem their routes will definitely bring more realism. :-)
Do you even football, bro? I already gave you a better way to implement QB vision than flooding the screen with a cone. I would rather have them work on correct physics, OL/DL interactions, tackling mechanics, better overall AI decision making and receiver route running/stemming/reading coverage than a ****ing QB cone. Seems to me that your the 'casual' here.
Originally Posted by hometeam:
You act like having the stupid QB cone is the only way to use a look off/eye direction mechanic.
This game is going to be the future, not the past~
Its all about the cone you filthy casual! If EA made user defenders 'player lock' so they couldnt see behind their player, then they would have to actually read the QB drop first if they wanted to try and read the route. Not sure if casual players could handle all that. [Reply]
