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Patteeu Memorial Political Forum>911 was an inside job.
Taco John 12:06 AM 02-09-2006
After watching this, I am once and for all convinced that it was an inside job...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...81991288263801


The evidence is way too strong.
[Reply]
Imon Yourside 08:49 PM 02-09-2010
Chapter 11: Structural Analysis of Initial Failure Event

Section 11.4 – Structural Response to Case B and Case C Fires

COMMENT: In Section 11.4 (NCSTAR 1-9, p. 523-532), NIST goes through a detailed comparison of the structural response of the lower floors of WTC 7 to Case B and Case C fire scenarios. Case B used gas temperatures that were 10% higher than Case A, while Case C used gas temperatures that were 10% lower than Case A. No analysis of the structural response is shown or discussed for Case A.

On page 533 of NCSTAR 1-9 (para. 1, sent. 1) NIST makes the unsupported assertion that “comparison of Case B and Case C results at 4 h (Section 11.3.3) showed that the Case C structural response would be nearly identical to the Case B structural response at a time between 4.0 h and 4.5 h.” However, when we read Section 11.3.3, we see that the analysis of Case C structural response was not carried out to 4.5 hours. Instead, we see that the response of Case C at 4.0 h was somewhat similar to the response of Case B at 3.5 h. NIST must explain how it extrapolated the Case C damage to 4.5 hours, when it was using lower temperatures in Case C than in Case B.

Also, no detailed analysis is disclosed for the Case A temperatures. NIST must include this data generated by Case A temperatures in its Report so the public can independently determine whether Case A profiles should be used in the subsequent LS-DYNA model.

REASON FOR COMMENT: Most important is the fact that NIST’s use of the structural response to only Case B temperatures in its subsequent LS-DYNA model represents yet another example of NIST choosing input data that would tend to overestimate the temperatures and structural damage caused during the WTC 7 fires. We explained above how NIST did this before with respect to gross overestimates of combustible loads on floors 11, 12 and 13. These happen to be the exact floors on which the most damage was caused in NIST’s black box model. Why did NIST not use the Case A and Case C structural response in the LS-DYNA model? Or, if it did, why did it not report the results of these models?

SUGGESTED REVISION: The final report must be revised to correct this error. If Case A and Case C structural responses were never used with the LS-DYNA model, the models should be re-run and the results reported to the scientific community and the American people. This is especially true in light of the fact that the 3.5 h Case B structural response did not result in global building collapse in the LS-DYNA model.

Chapter 12: WTC Global Collapse Analysis

Section 12.5.3 – Collapse Time

COMMENT: This comment concerns NIST’s estimation of the time it took for the WTC 7 structure to fall. Specifically, this concerns NIST’s comparison to the actual descent time with a hypothetical free-fall time. (NCSTAR 1-9, p. 595; NCSTAR 1A, p. 40-41) Basically, NIST took two data points, and assumed a constant acceleration throughout the collapse. (Id.) The first data point was allegedly taken at the time the top of the parapet wall on the roofline of the north face began descending. The second data point was allegedly taken at the time the roofline was no longer visible in Camera 3. NIST claims that the time it takes for the building to fall this distance, 242 feet, is 5.4 seconds, plus or minus 0.1 seconds. No graphical or visual support is given for this time estimate.

REASON FOR COMMENT: Members of this group have conducted an independent analysis of the Camera 3 footage and come to an entirely different conclusion regarding the collapse time. Our analysis was done on a frame-by-frame basis using a frame rate of 29.97 frames per second. As shown in the figure below, our analysis concludes that it takes 3.87 seconds for the top of the roofline to descend out of view of Camera 3. This time matches almost exactly the free-fall time.

SUGGESTED REVISION: NIST must revise its Report to show the exact frames it used from Camera 3 in determining the time it took for the roofline to fall out of view. 5.4 seconds appears to be a gross overestimate. The frames we used in our collapse analysis are shown below (times “t + X seconds” reference the times given in NIST’s Appendix L, Table L-1) along with a graphical analysis of how we determined which frame represented the onset of global collapse:







Members of this group have used the Physics Toolkit computer software to plot Velocity vs. Collapse Time using discrete data points gathered during the entire collapse from the view NIST calls Camera 2. This plot is reproduced below and provides a much more detailed look at the dynamics of the WTC 7 collapse than is provided by NIST’s two-data-point analysis. Also included in the graph is a linear regression for approximately 2.6 seconds of the collapse that appears to have a constant acceleration. As can be seen, the slope (acceleration) during this portion of the collapse was approximately constant at about 9.8 m/s/s, or acceleration due to gravity with little to no resistance below. The r-squared value for this linear regression analysis was 0.9931 – a very good fit. This clearly demonstrates that NIST is being extremely misleading in reporting to the public that the structure did not descend at free-fall speed, especially given the implications of this documented feature of WTC 7’s destruction.



Chapter 8: Initiating Event Hypothesis

Inconsistencies Between Report and NIST Technical Presentation Slides

COMMENT: On page 353 of NCSTAR 1-9 (para. 1, sent. 9) NIST states that “Buckling of other floor beams followed as shown in Figure 8-27 (a), leading to collapse of the floor system, and rocking of the girder off its seat at Column 79 as shown in Figure 8-27(b).” Slide 33 of Dr. Sunder’s August 26, 2008 technical presentation states that “Forces from thermal expansion failed the connection at Column 79, then pushed the girder off the seat.” (
http://wtc.nist.gov/media/WTC7_Techn...ing_082608.pdf)

REASON FOR COMMENT: There seems to be an inconsistency in what NIST is telling the public. In the Report it seems as if the floor system collapses, which drags the girder off its seat to the east. In Dr. Sunder’s presentation, the floor beams appear to remain rigid and push the girder off its seat to the west. These conflicting statements make it difficult for the public to determine which story NIST actually believes.

SUGGESTED REVISION: NIST must reconcile the difference between its public presentation and the substance of the Report.

“Perfectly Fixed” Exterior Columns and Rigid Floor Beams

COMMENT: On page 350 of NCSTAR 1-9 (para. 2) the exterior columns and column 44 were modeled as “perfectly fixed” at a number of locations during the finite element analysis of the northeast corner of the building. This computer model was purporting to demonstrate that thermal expansion could cause the girder to disconnect from Column 79. Obviously, if the floor beams were to elongate due to thermal expansion, it would expand in both axial directions. This, in turn, would put pressure on whatever was connected to each end of the expanded beam.

REASON FOR COMMENT: To the extent “perfectly fixing” the exterior columns and column 44 caused the computer model to neglect the pressure put on the exterior columns due to thermal expansion, the computer model does not represent reality. The exterior columns should have been allowed to bow outward in response to this pressure. It is also unclear whether the floor beams were allowed to sag as they heated in the computer model. In NIST’s report on the Twin Towers, the main reason given for global collapse initiation was sagging floor beams. If NIST did not allow the floor beams to sag in its WTC 7 model, then it did not allow any of the thermal expansion to express itself as sagging rather than pressure on the connections. Even the Cardington tests cited by NIST showed that floor beams to sag when they are heated.

SUGGESTED REVISION: NIST must more clearly explain how the thermal expansion of the floor beams in both axial directions was accounted for in the computer models. If “perfectly fixing” the exterior columns caused all of the thermal expansion to occur in one direction, the computer models needs to be modified to comport with reality, and allow outward bowing of the external columns. Also, if the floor beams and girders were not allowed to sag as they heated, there is a fundamental disconnect between the WTC 7 computer models and the WTC 1 and 2 computer models. The computer models should be re-run with appropriate revisions made to the floor beam properties, which allow them to sag as they heat.

Temperatures Applied to Beams and Girders

COMMENT: In Figure 8-25 on p.352 of NCSTAR 1-9, NIST applies temperatures of 600°C and 500°C to the floor beams and girders, respectively, over a period of about 2.6 seconds. Putting aside for a moment the fact that applying that much heat over a 2.6 second time interval could not possibly approximate the reality of the fires at WTC 7, other problems still remain. For example, these extreme temperatures were applied uniformly for all nodes of the beams and girders. (NCSTAR 1-9, p. 351)

REASON FOR COMMENT: On page 452 of NCSTAR 1-9, NIST only reports that some “sections” of the floor beams exceeded 600°C. Nowhere does NIST indicate that the computer models show uniform temperatures of 600°C for floor beams and virtually no information is given for temperatures of girders. Again, these temperatures are applied uniformly over an extremely small amount of time, which is not representative of an actual fire.

SUGGESTED REVISION: Run the computer models for the northeast section of floors again using realistic temperatures and realistic application times. Report the results accordingly.

Only High Explosives Considered in Hypothetical Blast Event

COMMENT: In its analysis of “hypothetical blast scenarios” that might have lead to the collapse of WTC 7, NIST only considers blast events using RDX, an extremely high explosive. (NCSTAR 1-9, p. 355, last sentence) NIST goes on to argue that because no loud sounds were heard, and because no window breakage was observed, that RDX was not used to bring down WTC 7.

REASON FOR COMMENT AND SUGGESTED REVISION: However, as documented by Kevin Ryan at the Journal of 9/11 Studies (http://www.journalof911studies.com/v...and_Nano-1.pdf) many scientists working for and associated with NIST have experience with nanoenergetic compounds, or nanothermites, that have the potential to be used for building demolitions. And because nanothermites are primarily high-temperature incendiaries rather than explosives, they could cause damage to steel structures without producing the sound and destruction levels associated with RDX. Because NIST personnel have intimate experience with these materials, NIST should revise its report to specifically analyze whether such nanoenergetic materials could have been used as a component in a “hypothetical blast scenario” at WTC 7.

Furthermore, the National Fire Protection Association Manual for fire and explosion investigations, in Section 921, very clearly indicates that the possibility of explosives should have been thoroughly investigated by NIST. Specifically in NFPA 921 18.3.2 “High Order Damage” – “High-order damage is characterized by shattering of the structure, producing small, pulverized debris. Walls, roofs, and structural members are splintered or shattered, with the building completely demolished. Debris is thrown great distances, possibly hundreds of feet. High-order damage is the result of rapid rates of pressure rise.” WTC 7 clearly met this definition. Therefore NIST should have investigated more thoroughly the possibility that explosive were used. Specifically, the use of “exotic accelerants” should have been investigated. In NFPA 921 19.2.4 – “Exotic Accelerants,” three indicators were clearly met that should have led to a thorough investigation into the possible use of “exotic accelerants,” specifically as stated in the guideline, “Thermite mixtures.” NIST should comply with NFPA Section 921 and test the debris from WTC 7 for thermite residues and report the results to the scientific community.

CONTINUED.....
[Reply]
Imon Yourside 08:52 PM 02-09-2010
Omissions from the NIST Report

Foreknowledge of Collapse

NIST omitted from the Report information relating to foreknowledge by several groups of people that WTC 7 was going to collapse.

What we mean by foreknowledge is a quality of detail and a strength of conviction that allow us to say, in light of the building’s collapse at approximately 5:21 p.m., that they knew in advance that it was coming down.

Such knowledge is highly significant in light of the facts that (a) no steel framed skyscraper in history (indeed, NIST says, “no tall building” in history) had ever before collapsed from fire alone; and (b) the collapse, according to NIST, was the result of a series of accidental and unpredictable factors, which did not come together in such a way as to determine the fate of the building until minutes, or possibly even seconds, before the collapse took place.

In any situation where someone demonstrates foreknowledge of an extremely unusual event, the possibility must be considered that the knowledge derived from those who had control over the event. In other words, foreknowledge of WTC 7’s collapse greatly strengthens our suspicions that the building was subjected to controlled demolition and that the knowledge of its demise derived ultimately from those who intended to bring it down.

NIST has tried to evade the issue of foreknowledge of WTC’s collapse by implying:

(a) that the FDNY, on the scene, saw the damage to the building caused by the collapse of WTC 1 and rationally concluded that WTC 7 might collapse.

From NIST NCSTAR 1A, p.16:

“The emergency responders quickly recognized that WTC 7 had been damaged by the collapse of WTC 1...

As early as 11:30 a.m., FDNY recognized that there was no water coming out of the hydrant system to fight the fires that were visible. With the collapses of the towers fresh in their minds, there was concern that WTC 7 too might collapse...”

(b) that an engineer, early in the day, saw the damage to the building and concluded it might collapse, passing on this assessment to others (Lead Investigator Shyam Sunder, in a discussion with Graeme MacQueen on CKNX Radio, Wingham, Ontario, Aug. 25, 2008)

It is true that damage to WTC 7 was directly witnessed by some firefighters and led a few of them (about seven) to worry that the building might collapse, but the great majority (approximately 50) who were worried about collapse did not base this worry on what they perceived but on what they were told. (See Graeme MacQueen, “Waiting for Seven: WTC 7 Collapse Warnings in the FDNY Oral Histories”, Journal of 9/11 Studies, June 11, 2008) Moreover, while it is apparently also true that an engineer communicated his opinion, early in the day, that the building might collapse, neither this communication nor communications from the FDNY is sufficient to explain the evidence of foreknowledge that we possess.

Below are seven reasons why the above NIST explanations of foreknowledge are inadequate. One example is given to illustrate each of the seven reasons. More details can be found in the paper by Graeme MacQueen titled “Waiting for Seven: WTC 7 Collapse Warnings in the FDNY Oral Histories” published at the Journal of 9/11 Studies (http://www.journalof911studies.com/v...aitingforSeven...).

1. Certainty
To worry that a damaged building might collapse in some fashion is one thing; but to be certain that it will collapse is another. Detailed study of the accounts of the FDNY shows that over half of those who received warnings of WTC 7’s collapse (where degree of certainty can be determined from the reports) were certain or were told with certainty that it was coming down. (The figures are: 31 out of 58. See “Waiting for Seven”.)

2. Early announcement
If someone was observing the fires in WTC 7 and was able to determine, in the last few moments of the building’s existence, that a peculiar set of circumstances was beginning to threaten the building, that would be one thing; but to receive warnings of the building’s collapse well before this set of circumstances was in place raises far more suspicions. Yet a detailed study of the FDNY reports show that of the 33 cases where the time of warning can be determined, in ten cases warnings were received two or more hours in advance and in six cases warnings were apparently received four of more hours in advance. (See “Waiting for Seven.”) In other words, long, long before the unique set of circumstances had come together to cause the building’s collapse, the collapse was being spoken of widely.

3. Precision
If the collapse warnings derived from vague worries and concerns they would not have been precise. No building had come down from these causes before, and, in fact, complete collapse such as happened to WTC 1, WTC 2, and WTC 7 was very rare, apart from cases of controlled demolition. That is why FDNY member James McGlynn could say on 9/11, speaking of one of the Towers, "Any time I've heard of a collapse, it was never an entire building like this turned out to be." (See “Waiting for Seven.”) Yet, despite the rareness of complete collapse, many people apparently knew in advance that WTC 7 would be undergoing such a collapse. Consider the following from the FDNY oral histories:

Q. "Were you there when building 7 came down in the afternoon?"
A. "Yes."
Q. "You were still there?"
A. "Yes, so basically they measured out how far the building was going to come, so we knew exactly where we could stand."
Q. "So they just put you in a safe area, safe enough for when that building came down?"
A. "5 blocks. 5 blocks away. We still could see. Exactly right on point, the cloud stopped right there." (See “Waiting for Seven.”)

4. New information
If the collapse warnings derived from worries and concerns expressed early in the day by engineers and firefighters, why would the collapse of WTC 7 have been reported by CNN (one hour and 10 minutes in advance) and BBC (23 minutes in advance) as breaking news based on just received information? CNN anchor Aaron Brown said “We are getting information now.” CNN anchor Judy Woodruff: “We’re hearing for the first time” (See Appendix.) BBC anchor: “We’ve got some news just coming in”.

5. Premature announcement
CNN and the BBC did not merely report that the building was damaged or that it might collapse; they prematurely announced its actual collapse.

CNN’s Aaron Brown, one hour and ten minutes in advance of the collapse: “We are getting information now that one of the other buildings, Building 7, in the World Trade Center complex, is on fire and has either collapsed or is collapsing...”
BBC anchor, 23 minutes before the collapse: “the Salomon Brothers Building in New York, right in the heart of Manhattan, has also collapsed.”
No satisfactory explanation has been forthcoming about these premature announcements, which were obviously based on data fed to these announcers.

6. Continuity
The BBC continued to announce that WTC 7 had collapsed, even when the building could be seen standing directly behind reporter Jane Standley, for about 17 minutes until the story was pulled abruptly.

When CNN personnel realized they had made an error in their early announcement, they could simply have corrected it. They could, at the very least, have withdrawn their attention from WTC 7 and stopped covering it since it was obviously still standing. Instead, CNN continued to keep WTC 7 in the forefront of its coverage over the hour and ten minutes preceding its collapse, repeatedly warning that it was going to come down and keeping the image of the building in front of the viewer until it had actually collapsed. (See Appendix.)

7. Progression
According to NIST’s study, WTC 7’s fires had been reduced from ten floors, soon after the collapse of WTC 1, to essentially two floors as the collapse time approached. This was a building in which the fires were actually dying down. Why, then, did CNN show awareness of the building’s approaching doom, and why did it revise its captions accordingly, from “may collapse” to “poised to collapse” (approximately 15 minutes before actual collapse) and then to “on verge of collapse” (approximately 1.5 minutes before actual collapse). (Appendix)

Any one of these seven factors would be enough to make us consider the possibility of foreknowledge of WTC 7’s collapse. Taken together, they make an unanswerable case.

As further support, below we have provided a timeline of events based on CNN’s coverage of Building 7. The times in the left-hand column are within 30 seconds of actual time.



The NIST Report should be revised to include a detailed analysis of all of the reports of specific foreknowledge of the collapse of Building 7. NIST’s Lead Investigator, Dr. Sunder, when challenged with reports like this during radio interviews recently has stated that NIST’s investigation was not a criminal investigation, but instead is a technical one. However, this position belies the fact that NIST did opine in the Report that the controlled demolition hypothesis was unlikely because NIST didn’t believe that the explosives could be placed without being detected. Such an opinion is not a technical opinion, but an operational one that goes more to logistically how a criminal could have committed the crime than technically how it was done. Clearly NIST could consider the many reports of foreknowledge and note the impossibility of such specific and detailed foreknowledge. The Report should be revised accordingly.

FEMA Building Performance Study – Appendix C

The NIST WTC 7 Report does not attempt to explain the “severe high-temperature corrosion attack” on apparently the only piece of WTC 7 steel which was tested, as documented in Appendix C, “Limited Metallurgical Examination” of the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) Building Performance Study, which can be found at the link below on the NIST website.

http://wtc.nist.gov/media/AppendixC-fema403_apc.pdf

The detailed further study deemed necessary by FEMA was – as far as we know - never done, and the observed “intergranular melting” of the steel can not be explained within the framework of the present NIST hypothesis. Why would NIST ignore the recommendations made by FEMA investigators for additional research of the unexplained material behavior?

In a taped interview Worcester Polytechnic Institute Fire Engineering professor Dr. Jonathan Barnett, one of the authors of the 13 page report in Appendix C, made the comment that normal investigative protocol was not followed in the case of the WTC 7 collapse. He says that the steel from WTC 7 was not photographed, examined, and cataloged before being removed. The comments he makes are at the 3:00 minute mark in the below linked video.

http://www.911podcasts.com/display.p...Name&strt=180&...

It is reported that WTC 7 was fully evacuated long before its collapse and that there were no fatalities or missing persons involved with its demise. The photos in the figures below show the collapsed WTC 7 to have its debris field confined to within a short distance of its footprint.





CONTINUED.....
[Reply]
Imon Yourside 08:54 PM 02-09-2010
In addition to showing the relatively tight confinement of the debris field of WTC 7, the photo in Figure 2 also shows that debris from WTC 6 and WTC 5 was contained within their footprints or very nearby.

The FEMA report debris field map for the Twin Towers, below in Figure 3, shows that only a small percentage of the debris from WTC 1 made it the 350 feet to WTC 7’s location. The lighter areas on the map represent low debris density and the darker areas high debris density.



The seeming separation of the WTC 7 debris field from those of the other buildings, and the fact there were no missing persons or fatalities involved with its collapse, make it hard to accept the History Channel program narrator’s comment, in the video above, that the mingling of the steel from the different buildings, and the need for search and rescue, were the reasons for the removal of the WTC 7 steel, before it could be properly photographed, examined, and cataloged, at the collapse site.

Even if the WTC 7 steel was moved, without being examined and cataloged at the site of the collapse, an additional question arises as to why it wasn’t recovered and stored for later testing, evaluation, and a systematic forensic analysis. This is especially pertinent in light of the FEMA recommendation that additional research was needed due to the strange findings in their very limited metallurgical examination.

In the August 2008 NIST draft Report on WTC 7 there is no mention of testing of any recovered steel from the collapsed remains of the building. In sections where the properties of the steel need to be discussed reference is curiously made to WTC steel samples, not specifically those of WTC 7. This can be understood if one is aware that in an earlier draft of the WTC 7 report NIST made the stark admission that “No metallography could be carried out because no steel was recovered from WTC 7. Other physical properties are the same as those estimated in Chapter 8 for the WTC steels”.

Since the NIST report on the collapse of WTC 7 suffers from a lack of physical evidence to support its findings, it should go into some level of detail on: why normal investigatory protocol was not followed, why none of the steel was recovered, and whether any laws were violated in not doing so. If there are questions as to the legality of the removal and lack of recovery for investigatory purposes, NIST should recommend that an investigation be commenced to determine who was involved with the decision to remove the steel and why NIST did not receive any of it for its investigation.

There are also several seemingly contradictory issues between the FEMA Building Performance Study Appendix C and the NIST WTC 7 Report, for which no explanations have been provided, and they are:


* NIST states "No steel was recovered from WTC 7" while FEMA section C.2 shows that at least one piece of WTC 7 steel was tested, with the results being alarming, considering the highly unusual formation of a liquid eutectic, intergranular melting, and erosion. Features not seen before, by the experienced investigators, in steel subject to common office fires.
* FEMA section C.3 Summary for Sample 1 states that the steel was heated to around 1,000° C. (1,800° F.), which is much hotter than the steel temperatures NIST is claiming to have caused the collapse, and seemingly far outside the ability of office fires to heat the steel. Additionally, this section states that steel liquefied at these temperatures, due to the formation of the eutectic, which would dramatically lower the usual 2750° F melting point temperature of the steel.
* FEMA Section C.6 Suggestions for Future Research states "It is also possible that the intergranular melting, eutectic formation, and erosion phenomenon started prior to collapse and accelerated the weakening of the steel structure."


Why hasn't the "future research" been done, and the results from it published, especially when FEMA itself suggested that this melting and erosion may have started “prior to collapse”? NIST was charged with investigating the conditions that led to the collapse of WTC 7, and clearly something that possibly occurred prior to collapse and “accelerated the weakening of the steel structure” is something NIST should have investigated. NIST should revise the Report accordingly after it has performed the needed metallurgical analysis.

These public comments on the NIST WTC 7 Report are being submitted by the following individuals:

James R. Gourley, Esq.
Chemical Engineer
International Center for 9/11 Studies
jrpatent@gmail.com

Tony Szamboti
Mechanical Engineer
Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth

Richard Gage
AIA Architect
Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth

Graeme MacQueen, Ph.D.
Scholars for 9/11 Truth & Justice

Dr. Steven Jones
Ph.D. Physicist
S&J Scientific Co.

Kevin Ryan
Chemist
Scholars for 9/11 Truth & Justice

Dr. Niels Harrit
Ph.D. Chemistry
University of Copenhagen

Ron Brookman
Structural Engineer
Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth

Chris Sarns
Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth

Kamal Obeid, SE PE
Structural Engineer
Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth

Scott Grainger, PE
Forensic Engineer
Civil Engineer
Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth

Frank Legge
Logistical Systems Consulting

Bob Fischer
Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth

Justin Keogh
Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth

David Chandler
Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth

Gregg Roberts
gregg@wtc7.net

http://www.911blogger.com/node/17794
[Reply]
Brock 09:23 PM 02-09-2010
Nobody is going to read that.
[Reply]
Imon Yourside 09:25 PM 02-09-2010
Originally Posted by Brock:
Nobody is going to read that.
Exactly true, the average person will sign a petition to ban the 1st amendment because they are so well informed.
[Reply]
Brock 09:27 PM 02-09-2010
Your cut and paste crap from those nutty websites you're always visiting aren't exactly a convincing argument.
[Reply]
Norman Einstein 09:29 PM 02-09-2010
Something that seems to be throwing the whole discussion off, not this one, but the one that fuels the controversy.

When an investigator is attempting to prove, in this case, a conspiracy his objectivity is questionable.

There will never be any proof of wrong doing by anyone inside the country because the attacks were just as we saw them on live TV.
[Reply]
ChiTown 09:31 PM 02-09-2010
Originally Posted by KILLER_CLOWN:
Exactly true, the average person will sign a petition to ban the 1st amendment because they are so well informed.
:-)

And, the average idiot will attach himself to any conspiracy - no matter the contradictory evidence.

Have fun torturing yourself with your "facts".
[Reply]
Imon Yourside 09:31 PM 02-09-2010
Originally Posted by CTTCS_WLR:
Something that seems to be throwing the whole discussion off, not this one, but the one that fuels the controversy.

When an investigator is attempting to prove, in this case, a conspiracy his objectivity is questionable.

There will never be any proof of wrong doing by anyone inside the country because the attacks were just as we saw them on live TV.
Which of the thousands of investigators is this aimed at?
[Reply]
Imon Yourside 09:33 PM 02-09-2010
Originally Posted by ChiTown:
:-)

And, the average idiot will attach himself to any conspiracy - no matter the contradictory evidence.

Have fun torturing yourself with your "facts".
Proof of the average beer drinking, comedy show watching, i could give a shi!t about America idiot. I guess we deserve what we get as a people, land of the coward home of the slave.
[Reply]
Imon Yourside 09:35 PM 02-09-2010
Originally Posted by Brock:
Your cut and paste crap from those nutty websites you're always visiting aren't exactly a convincing argument.
Only because these are True investigators and people have lived so fat and happy they have no idea what our forefathers went through to give us what we enjoy today.
[Reply]
Amnorix 07:04 AM 02-10-2010
Originally Posted by Donger:
I see someone brought up the fact that the WTC was designed to survive an aircraft impact. That's true. Here's the other facts, however: it was designed to survive a 707 impact at approach speeds, not a 767 impact at nearly 500 mph.
And it did survive the 767 impact at nearly 500 mph, loaded with 90,000 liters of jet fuel, for nearly 2 hours. But the uncontained fires (obviously, the jet fuel set everything else that was flammable in the building on fire in the vicinity of the crash, and then the fire spread) lasted too long and caused structural weakening throughout (not just the side of the impact).

And your earlier post showing the picture of some degree of toppling is revealing.
[Reply]
Amnorix 07:05 AM 02-10-2010
Originally Posted by KILLER_CLOWN:
Lawyers for 9/11 Truth

Many lawyers have concluded that the 9/11 Commission and other government examinations were wholly inadequate, and did not follow proper rules of evidence or procedure.

http://lawyersfor911truth.blogspot.com/

errr...ummm....there are no rules of evidence outside of a Courtroom. This is inherently nonsensical. As for procedure, I'm uncertain how a Commission is supposed to work, but I'm not certain that they are bound by ANY requirements. It's not an administrative action or anything, so far as I know.
[Reply]
Amnorix 07:13 AM 02-10-2010
Originally Posted by Donger:
That first YouTube video was pretty funny. "No other building has ever collapsed because of an office fire!"

Well, how many other office fires began as a result of fuel-laden 767 crashing into it at 500 mph?

Chirp.
Exactly. Obviously skyscrapers generally have pretty good fire suppression systems. It's not like the builders don't know that the local firefighters can't just put up a ladder and put out a fire on the 70th floor.

But the fire suppression systems aren't designed to deal with what was essentially a huge bomb going off in the middle of the building, and the subsequent fire that was fueled by a massive amount of highly flammable jet fuel.
[Reply]
Radar Chief 07:51 AM 02-10-2010
Originally Posted by KILLER_CLOWN:
Only because these are True investigators and people have lived so fat and happy they have no idea what our forefathers went through to give us what we enjoy today.
:-) @ “True investigators”.
They’re snake oil salesmen. They’ve sold countless books and movies and you gobble it up because it fits what you want to believe and think this gives you some leverage to point and yell “moran”. Problem is, were you as critical of the conspiracy theorists you choose to put your faith in as you are your own government we probably wouldn’t be having this conversation.
[Reply]
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