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Nzoner's Game Room>***Official 2023-2024 NBA Thread***
dirk digler 04:43 PM 10-24-2023
Can't believe the NBA Season is starting tonight. Way to early but here we go.

Lakers vs Nuggets: 6:30PM

Suns vs Warriors: 9PM

Both on TNT
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DJ's left nut 02:28 PM 04-15-2024
Shit, I don't want to go back to Lebron land, but it's interesting to look at his MVPs.

I wondered who most recently got 4 consecutive MVPs and went to see if LBJ did it. He got 4 in 5. And should've won 5 in a row, IMO. That stretch should've been 5 pretty easy votes.

And as I looked through his placements I thought "Damn, should he really have won like EIGHT of these things?"

Nope. That was it. I kinda thought there was going to be some real LeBron fatigue in there but I don't think there is. As I looked through the results I'm not going to say that they were all completely right, but there were more deserving MVPs every year he didn't win one except for the 10/11 season where Rose won.

James should've won. Hell, I'm not convinced Rose should've been top 3 that year. James and Howard were the clear two best players in the league. Dirk was still at/near his apex. Wade was still fantastic. Shit, Paul deserved a look.

It's obvious that James didn't win it because "The Decision" pissed people off so badly and it spoiled the results. But...why Rose? Wade got LeBron blowback. Howard was weird I guess? But the media loved Paul - though NOLA sucked. Even acknowledging all that, I'd STILL give it to Dirk.

Just a weird year.
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chiefzilla1501 03:26 PM 04-15-2024
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
Shit, I don't want to go back to Lebron land, but it's interesting to look at his MVPs.

I wondered who most recently got 4 consecutive MVPs and went to see if LBJ did it. He got 4 in 5. And should've won 5 in a row, IMO. That stretch should've been 5 pretty easy votes.

And as I looked through his placements I thought "Damn, should he really have won like EIGHT of these things?"

Nope. That was it. I kinda thought there was going to be some real LeBron fatigue in there but I don't think there is. As I looked through the results I'm not going to say that they were all completely right, but there were more deserving MVPs every year he didn't win one except for the 10/11 season where Rose won.

James should've won. Hell, I'm not convinced Rose should've been top 3 that year. James and Howard were the clear two best players in the league. Dirk was still at/near his apex. Wade was still fantastic. Shit, Paul deserved a look.

It's obvious that James didn't win it because "The Decision" pissed people off so badly and it spoiled the results. But...why Rose? Wade got LeBron blowback. Howard was weird I guess? But the media loved Paul - though NOLA sucked. Even acknowledging all that, I'd STILL give it to Dirk.

Just a weird year.
Unfortunately historically we will always look at total mvps. But in reality mvp voters in the modern age often have personal reasons for not voting someone in. Biggest being wanting to give someone else a chance. It’s the reason Embiid won and probably a reason why Jokic isn’t a complete runaway this year.
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DJ's left nut 03:37 PM 04-15-2024
Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501:
Unfortunately historically we will always look at total mvps. But in reality mvp voters in the modern age often have personal reasons for not voting someone in. Biggest being wanting to give someone else a chance. Itís the reason Embiid won and probably a reason why Jokic isnít a complete runaway this year.
yeah but that tends to work out in the wash.

Every last player in the GOAT debate (when those sort of conversations really matter) got shorted an MVP.

Jordan is the only one where you can really get those numbers up there. There's a damn good argument that he should've won it in the summer of '89, 90, 93 and 97.

Relative to his peers, nobody's ever been that dominant. Magic deserved the '87 MVP, IMO. But from 88 through 98 you could argue fairly easily that Jordan should've been the MVP in all 9 full seasons he played.

Magic over Jordan in 89 -- defensible but edge MJ
Magic and Chuck over Jordan in 90 -- Again, defensible for Magic but it was really team success that gave Magic those two MVPs. now as a fairly unique facilitator, perhaps that's worthwhile. But Jordan should've won at least one of those.

Barkely and Olajuwon over Jordan in '93 - PURE Jordan fatigue. This is just a wrong result. By truly any measure.

Malone over Jordan in '97 - Again, I'm inclined to agree with Michael here. The voters just got this one wrong.

Split the Magic awards if you're being diplomatic and I think Jordan should've still had 3 more than he did.

As for Kareem - eh, just such a different era. I mean Cowens is a laughably bad selection in 73. He probably should've won it over Walton in '78, Malone in 79 is close but defensible. So at most I'd say he got shorted out of 2 but really, I'd say it's really just the Cowens one in '73 that's something of an injustice and that pretty much checks out with everyone else.
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KC_Connection 03:46 PM 04-15-2024
They honestly just spread those things around way more than they should. Jokic should have won at least three of them so far (and the one he's gonna get this year should be his 4th). MJ should have won more than he did as well.

With respect to LeBron specifically, it doesn't help that the majority of the media throughout much of his career grew up watching MJ. They were not inclined to vote for him and allow him to tie or surpass MJ in MVPs (which he very clearly should have done about 11-12 years ago now).
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DJ's left nut 03:51 PM 04-15-2024
Looks like Chamberlain got screwed quite a bit.

Russell didn't deserve it over him in 61, 62 or 63. Robertson in '64 is close but defensible. i really don't think Russell deserved it in 65 either but West did over Wilt.

But that's just the same argument that's been had a million times - stats vs. record. I think Russell's legend is wildly overstated but the dudes that actually watched him play oftentimes loudly disagree with me there. So I'll defer to them on that.

A guy who I think about who might be seen differently from a historical perspective if the MVP was decided a little better is Dirk. He only won one of them so we don't think of him in that generational tier, but he SHOULD'VE won 3 and could've won 4. At that point he's there with Kareem, Jordan, Russel, James and Wilt as the only 4 time winners.

Just paints him in a slightly different light. The problem with trying to put Dirk in that tier is that the Mavs only came out of the conference twice in his career. And as impressive as the 2011 championship is, he's not a multi-time winner and in that God Tier of guys, I think you need to be.
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DJ's left nut 03:52 PM 04-15-2024
Originally Posted by KC_Connection:
They honestly just spread those things around way more than they should. Jokic should have won at least three of them so far (and the one he's gonna get this year should be his 4th). MJ should have won more than he did as well.

With respect to LeBron specifically, it doesn't help that the majority of the media throughout much of his career grew up watching MJ. They were not inclined to vote for him and allow him to tie or surpass MJ in MVPs (which he very clearly should have done about 11-12 years ago now).
Except that Michael 'should have' won at least 8. And no, James has no claim to that.

If we're gonna award 'should have been' MVPs, James loses ground to MJ - he doesn't gain on him.

But seeing how few guys have ever won 4 (and none have ever won 4 straight) just makes me all the more annoyed at that damn Embiid award last year. It was just a really bad outcome.
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KC_Connection 03:59 PM 04-15-2024
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
Except that Michael 'should have' won at least 8. And no, James has no claim to that.

If we're gonna award 'should have been' MVPs, James loses ground to MJ - he doesn't gain on him.

But seeing how few guys have ever won 4 (and none have ever won 4 straight) just makes me all the more annoyed at that damn Embiid award last year. It was just a really bad outcome.
I'd have to look at it more closely, but I think you could easily find 8 years where LeBron was statistically the best player in the league quite easily. Was he on the best teams in all of those years? Certainly not, but that's not my criteria for the award anyway.

And Embiid obviously shouldn't have won last year. Maybe the worst decision since Derrick Rose.
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New World Order 04:00 PM 04-15-2024
Jordan dominated his era far more (Scoring Titles, MVPs, Rings etc..), but Lebron played much better competition.

That's really what it boils down to...
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DJ's left nut 04:06 PM 04-15-2024
And my favorite thing to do in any Jordan discussion is to mention Wayne Gretzky.

Gretz, interestingly, is the only guy I think got MORE MVPs than he should have. Just a quick stroll says of his 9 MVPs, he probably should've only won 7 of them. Lemieux got shafted out of one and the one he got as a rookie is pretty iffy but when a kid shows up at 19 and sets the league on its ear, that's gonna turn some heads.

Still seems like Marcel Dionne might've had a better claim to it that year though. And in the prime of his career without having ever won one, I'm surprised they didn't give it to him in such a tight race.

Over 700 career goals and never won an MVP. Most by anyone not to. Now I just feel bad for the guy.
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KC_Connection 04:11 PM 04-15-2024
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
And my favorite thing to do in any Jordan discussion is to mention Wayne Gretzky.

Gretz, interestingly, is the only guy I think got MORE MVPs than he should have. Just a quick stroll says of his 9 MVPs, he probably should've only won 7 of them. Lemieux got shafted out of one and the one he got as a rookie is pretty iffy but when a kid shows up at 19 and sets the league on its ear, that's gonna turn some heads.

Still seems like Marcel Dionne might've had a better claim to it that year though. And in the prime of his career without having ever won one, I'm surprised they didn't give it to him in such a tight race.

Over 700 career goals and never won an MVP. Most by anyone not to. Now I just feel bad for the guy.
I didn't watch either one of Gretzsky or Lemieux in their primes in the 80s, but I've been told that prime Lemieux easily had an argument as the best player in hockey in those days.
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KC_Connection 04:13 PM 04-15-2024
I'd say LeBron was also the best player in the NBA from about 2007 to 2020. Did he post the best seasons statistically in all of those years? No, he conserved energy in the regular seasons, especially in his 2nd Cavs stint/Lakers stint, and because of that his numbers took a hit.

Everyone knew it though and you could make a case he was the MVP in each and every one of those seasons (the same way you could make a case for Mahomes in each and every one of his seasons since he became a starter despite some like Lamar and Rodgers posting better stats than him at times).
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DJ's left nut 04:20 PM 04-15-2024
Originally Posted by KC_Connection:
I'd have to look at it more closely, but I think you could easily find 8 years where LeBron was statistically the best player in the league quite easily. Was he on the best teams in all of those years? Certainly not, but that's not my criteria for the award anyway.

And Embiid obviously shouldn't have won last year. Maybe the worst decision since Derrick Rose.
Eh - like I said, I went into the exercise fully expecting to find exactly that. Didn't happen.

James was a metronome, don't get me wrong. Stellar every one of those years. But there were better seasons from players that came and went around him. In my 'perfect world' scenario you get:

'04 -- Garnett
05 -- Dirk, Duncan OR Garnett (but not James)
06 -- Dirk
07 -- Dirk
08 -- Honestly? Probably Chris Paul. He was amazing. Then KG and James
09 -- Easy James. One of the best seasons ever.
10 -- James
11 -- James
12 -- James
13 -- James (his best ever season, IMO)
14 -- Durant
15 -- Curry
16 -- Curry
17 -- Kawhi but he missed a lot of games so maybe Harden
18 -- Harden (gross)
19 -- Giannis
20 -- Giannis
21 through 24 - Jokic


I've italicized his 4 best 'arguable' seasons and bolded the screw job. Again, I wouldn't have given him the MVP in any of them but even if I take the diplomatic 'split em' approach I took to Jordan, he gets 2 of those 'close' decisions to go with the added bold one and gets to 7.

Jordan was more dominant for his era. Argue it we because of lesser competition if you want, but it's the reality of it.
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DJ's left nut 04:22 PM 04-15-2024
Originally Posted by KC_Connection:
I didn't watch either one of Gretzsky or Lemieux in their primes in the 80s, but I've been told that prime Lemieux easily had an argument as the best player in hockey in those days.
I was just coming into the game so like you, i can't swear by any of it. It just didn't translate to TV well in those days and so it wasn't on very often.

But yeah, but many accounts there was about a 4-5 year period where Lemieux was just a better player than Gretzky.
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KC_Connection 06:16 PM 04-15-2024
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
Eh - like I said, I went into the exercise fully expecting to find exactly that. Didn't happen.

James was a metronome, don't get me wrong. Stellar every one of those years. But there were better seasons from players that came and went around him. In my 'perfect world' scenario you get:

'04 -- Garnett
05 -- Dirk, Duncan OR Garnett (but not James)
06 -- Dirk
07 -- Dirk
08 -- Honestly? Probably Chris Paul. He was amazing. Then KG and James
09 -- Easy James. One of the best seasons ever.
10 -- James
11 -- James
12 -- James
13 -- James (his best ever season, IMO)
14 -- Durant
15 -- Curry
16 -- Curry
17 -- Kawhi but he missed a lot of games so maybe Harden
18 -- Harden (gross)
19 -- Giannis
20 -- Giannis
21 through 24 - Jokic


I've italicized his 4 best 'arguable' seasons and bolded the screw job. Again, I wouldn't have given him the MVP in any of them but even if I take the diplomatic 'split em' approach I took to Jordan, he gets 2 of those 'close' decisions to go with the added bold one and gets to 7.

Jordan was more dominant for his era. Argue it we because of lesser competition if you want, but it's the reality of it.
LeBron had 9 years where he led the league in VORP (2005-2013 and 2017-2018) and 2 other years where he was 2nd (2004-2005 and 2013-2014) and 2 others where he was 3rd (2015-2016 and 2019-2020): https://www.basketball-reference.com...rp_top_10.html

You've got Dirk and CP3 (amazing players, no doubt) winning MVP in some of those LeBron Cavs years, but LeBron was the best player in basketball in that period. He just was playing with teams that were quite awful around him.

MJ also had 9 years where he led the league in VORP (1986-1993 and then 1995-1997) and 2 other years where he was 2nd (1984-1985 and 1997-1998).

I think you could easily make the case that both of them should have won at least double the amount of MVPs they won.
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KC_Connection 12:20 PM 04-16-2024

Year 21 LeBron compared to 4 MVP winning seasons. pic.twitter.com/ftvPfnyZ8a

— Barry (@BarryOnHere) April 16, 2024

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