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Nzoner's Game Room>Things I think it's time for:
Chris Meck 04:15 PM 09-25-2022
1. You can't trot Ammendola out again. You just can't. It'd be mutiny. I don't care what you do, you have to cut him and sign someone else. I'd go for two every time and have Reid kick off before I did that again.

2. Justin Watson needs way more snaps. Yes, he could've caught that one ball today, but he's big, he's fast, hes a physical match-up problem, and he usually catches the ball. He was inches away from another big TD today. Play him.

3. It's time to get Pacheco more touches. The midget squad isn't getting it done. It's not all their fault, but at least Pacheco is big and strong enough to maybe break some tackles.

4. It's time to bench Wylie. Wanegho can't be worse, and might have upside. Just do it, for accountability's sake if nothing else.

5. I think it's time to force feed more snaps to Moore. I don't want him returning punts anymore. Put Hardman there, you know what Hardman is, and he's not a route running WR. At least he might break a PR.
[Reply]
Chris Meck 03:29 PM 09-27-2022
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
But Hill can still beat drop coverages even underneath.

I'm not saying long-term we won't be better off for the approach we're attempting (though I'm not certain we will either; as I've said from the start, this is an experiment and a fascinating one at that).

But we WOULD be 3-0 right now if we had Tyreek Hill on the roster.
I don't know about that at all.

See, keeping Hill changes everything; about the draft, and about free agency, and on both sides of the ball.

Would we have done what we did with the defense if we kept Hill? Maybe, maybe not.

Chargers gave us all we could handle.
[Reply]
-King- 03:37 PM 09-27-2022
Originally Posted by Chris Meck:
If we still had Hill, it would be the 2021 version of Hill, which was a 11 ypc WR, because defenses were going to drop 7 on every play and absolutely not allow the explosive play.

Which makes Hill not worth that kind of money. Which is why we traded him.

Now, defenses are still doing that, and we need to make them pay, and a LOT of the blame goes to the OT position-BOTH of them, in my opinion-but some of that goes to Patrick too, as he really wants to get the yards in big chunks. He's going to have to learn to be more patient, and take the short stuff to open up the long stuff. The short stuff is often open, he just looks to the deep routes first and foremost.

And we need to be able to run the ball. There are some schematic issues as well as some individual and group execution issues that are making that not work.

It's still football, and the way it works in real life is still the same; just because you have Patrick Mahomes doesn't mean it's suddenly Madden.

That being said, he was a couple of inches off on the deep throw to Watson, which would've been 7. And Kelce dropped a TD. And the throw to MVS was just an offline throw, but MVS was in fact open, so if those three make-able plays happen, we're having entirely different conversations today.
If we had Juju with Hill teams wouldn't defend us the way they did last year.
[Reply]
DJ's left nut 03:42 PM 09-27-2022
Originally Posted by RunKC:
I don’t think so. Again they dropped all 3 backers into the middle of the field, had cover 2/3 in the back and doubled them.

Doesn’t change the OL getting wrecked with 4 DL or is being horrific running the ball.

They would have doubled Kelce and Tyreek and still had 3 defenders covering the remaining 2 receivers.
So...exactly what they did last year when we were the most efficient offense in football in the 2nd half?

We figured out how to make it work with Hill. We haven't figured out how to make it work yet without him.

But the annoying part is this just isn't new. Cover 2 shells have been around for years and they went out of favor because they were beatable. Yet....we can't seem to beat them?

I don't get it. There's something amiss here.
[Reply]
Chris Meck 03:47 PM 09-27-2022
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
So...exactly what they did last year when we were the most efficient offense in football in the 2nd half?

We figured out how to make it work with Hill. We haven't figured out how to make it work yet without him.

But the annoying part is this just isn't new. Cover 2 shells have been around for years and they went out of favor because they were beatable. Yet....we can't seem to beat them?

I don't get it. There's something amiss here.
Well, I mean, we did until we didn't.

Look, I hate to say anything critical of Patrick, but the reality is that much like last year when we struggled, guys are open short, and he's not taking those throws.
[Reply]
crispystl 03:48 PM 09-27-2022
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
I wonder if they didn't see Gus Bradley, expect a lot more single high and envision this as a get right game for the passing game figuring it could be a spring board for the new WR corps.

So again - Hubris. They just appear to have looked past Indy.

I certainly don’t think they were expecting the defensive looks they got. I thought the first drive of the second half attacked it much more logically and efficiently, but they seemed to regress right back to the first half play calling after that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
[Reply]
RunKC 03:49 PM 09-27-2022
Also..from Nate Taylor on Times Ours Pod:

“They are not gonna play rookies unless they have to. They’re playing Pacheco bc he moved the pile.” As in CEH and McKinnon can’t do that.

FWIW Mecole was clearly playing hurt. He shouldn’t have played that game. Skyy should have got his snaps
[Reply]
DJ's left nut 03:55 PM 09-27-2022
Originally Posted by Chris Meck:
Well, I mean, we did until we didn't.

Look, I hate to say anything critical of Patrick, but the reality is that much like last year when we struggled, guys are open short, and he's not taking those throws.
Yeah, that was certainly the case yesterday.

Left a lot of yards on the table underneath. And given that the consensus right now is that he 'doesn't trust his OL' that seems especially odd.

But I'll say what I've said for a couple years here - I kinda disagree with the consensus. I don't want this kid turning into Tom Brady - that's not where he'll excel.

Shooters shoot - let him shoot. It's innate for him and its dangerous as hell. Before we traded Hill and I wrote a novel on beating the Cover 2, I banged on the "no, we do not need to just dink and dunk to get them out of Cover 2" drum over and over again.

I still stand by that. You can beat Cover 2. You can even beat it deep. But you have to have more than one weapon out there. You needed to add MVS and Hardman TO Tyreek Hill. You need to challenge the corners more and put guys at decision points. Nobody WANTS to give up big plays and 'bend but don't break' isn't a new phenomenon. Teams have always attempted to make teams go about it the hard way. There's nothing novel to this idea.

And we responded to it by making it even easier for them.

The answer was not to get bigger and slower, IMO. It was to add MORE speed.

It seems the front office disagrees. I guess we'll see.
[Reply]
DJ's left nut 04:02 PM 09-27-2022
Here's my ungodly wasted of bandwidth on the matter.

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
Spoiler!
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
Spoiling this due to freakish length after seeing Pest quote it:

Spoiler!
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
Spoiler!
I just wish we'd have taken this a different direction. I'd have doubled down on what we did well rather than trying to pivot into improving at things we don't.
[Reply]
chiefzilla1501 04:05 PM 09-27-2022
Originally Posted by Chris Meck:
If we still had Hill, it would be the 2021 version of Hill, which was a 11 ypc WR, because defenses were going to drop 7 on every play and absolutely not allow the explosive play.

Which makes Hill not worth that kind of money. Which is why we traded him.

Now, defenses are still doing that, and we need to make them pay, and a LOT of the blame goes to the OT position-BOTH of them, in my opinion-but some of that goes to Patrick too, as he really wants to get the yards in big chunks. He's going to have to learn to be more patient, and take the short stuff to open up the long stuff. The short stuff is often open, he just looks to the deep routes first and foremost.

And we need to be able to run the ball. There are some schematic issues as well as some individual and group execution issues that are making that not work.

It's still football, and the way it works in real life is still the same; just because you have Patrick Mahomes doesn't mean it's suddenly Madden.

That being said, he was a couple of inches off on the deep throw to Watson, which would've been 7. And Kelce dropped a TD. And the throw to MVS was just an offline throw, but MVS was in fact open, so if those three make-able plays happen, we're having entirely different conversations today.
And in fairness we haven’t had time to replace him. Of course hill vs no replacement is going to feel like a step down. We will put that $22m we would have spent on him to very good use someday.

But on top of that we got mcduffie, skyy and kinnard. Mcduffie looks the part. Plenty of reason to be optimistic about skyy. It’s hard to say we did badly on this one.
[Reply]
RunKC 04:06 PM 09-27-2022
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
So...exactly what they did last year when we were the most efficient offense in football in the 2nd half?

We figured out how to make it work with Hill. We haven't figured out how to make it work yet without him.

But the annoying part is this just isn't new. Cover 2 shells have been around for years and they went out of favor because they were beatable. Yet....we can't seem to beat them?

I don't get it. There's something amiss here.
They weren’t as effective as you make it out to be.

First, take out the Raiders. Their dumbasses played single high in both games last year and got torched for it. They were the only defense that was stupid enough to do that.

After the Titans massacre we had:

Giants-20
Packers-13
Cowboys-19
Broncos-14…Sorenson pick 6
Chargers-34…in OT, 28 in regulation
Broncos-21..Bolton TD return

They got a terrible Steelers team and a Bills team with a decent (but not great) pass rush). I wouldn’t brag about the Bengals either seeing as how the Bengals completely shut them down in the 2nd half of both games.

There were signs of it all year. And man I can tell you right now no team put that much pressure Sunday on Patrick Mahomes in his career except the Bucs in the SB.

It was that bad
[Reply]
htismaqe 04:31 PM 09-27-2022
Originally Posted by FringeNC:
RONALD JONES

"In a so-far forgettable career, Jones had his most forgettable season — hitting career lows in all categories below. Additionally, he didn't improve his standing as a potential every-down option. Out of 97 running backs, he ranked 96th in pass block grade (12.4)."

https://www.pff.com/news/fantasy-foo...ee-agents-2022
My bad, I thought you were talking about Clyde. :-)
[Reply]
htismaqe 04:36 PM 09-27-2022
Originally Posted by Chris Meck:
Well, I mean, we did until we didn't.

Look, I hate to say anything critical of Patrick, but the reality is that much like last year when we struggled, guys are open short, and he's not taking those throws.
He's not just not taking them, he's not MAKING them either.

His ball placement yesterday was off, sometimes by a lot.
[Reply]
htismaqe 04:37 PM 09-27-2022
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
Yeah, that was certainly the case yesterday.

Left a lot of yards on the table underneath. And given that the consensus right now is that he 'doesn't trust his OL' that seems especially odd.

But I'll say what I've said for a couple years here - I kinda disagree with the consensus. I don't want this kid turning into Tom Brady - that's not where he'll excel.

Shooters shoot - let him shoot. It's innate for him and its dangerous as hell. Before we traded Hill and I wrote a novel on beating the Cover 2, I banged on the "no, we do not need to just dink and dunk to get them out of Cover 2" drum over and over again.

I still stand by that. You can beat Cover 2. You can even beat it deep. But you have to have more than one weapon out there. You needed to add MVS and Hardman TO Tyreek Hill. You need to challenge the corners more and put guys at decision points. Nobody WANTS to give up big plays and 'bend but don't break' isn't a new phenomenon. Teams have always attempted to make teams go about it the hard way. There's nothing novel to this idea.

And we responded to it by making it even easier for them.

The answer was not to get bigger and slower, IMO. It was to add MORE speed.

It seems the front office disagrees. I guess we'll see.
They added a shit ton more speed to the defense. The offensive moves don't seem to make any sense in that context.
[Reply]
htismaqe 04:48 PM 09-27-2022
Originally Posted by RunKC:
They weren’t as effective as you make it out to be.

First, take out the Raiders. Their dumbasses played single high in both games last year and got torched for it. They were the only defense that was stupid enough to do that.

After the Titans massacre we had:

Giants-20
Packers-13
Cowboys-19
Broncos-14…Sorenson pick 6
Chargers-34…in OT, 28 in regulation
Broncos-21..Bolton TD return

They got a terrible Steelers team and a Bills team with a decent (but not great) pass rush). I wouldn’t brag about the Bengals either seeing as how the Bengals completely shut them down in the 2nd half of both games.

There were signs of it all year. And man I can tell you right now no team put that much pressure Sunday on Patrick Mahomes in his career except the Bucs in the SB.

It was that bad
Dude I said it a few hours ago - that game on Sunday looked just like the team from last year. They've looked like this shit offense even WITH Tyreek Hill. I'm not here to argue about Hill - he's a generational player. Enough said.

But even with him, we had several games last year where teams locked him down and completely ratfucked our offense.

It's a little early in the season for this but I'm high as a kite and I've watched the All 22 like 6 times - the problem is Orlando Brown. It was Orlando Brown last year. Mahomes just isn't comfortable in the pocket, even when it's there.

Orlando Brown simply has to go after this season is over. Wish we could have gotten rid of him in the offseason now.
[Reply]
Chris Meck 05:05 PM 09-27-2022
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
Yeah, that was certainly the case yesterday.

Left a lot of yards on the table underneath. And given that the consensus right now is that he 'doesn't trust his OL' that seems especially odd.

But I'll say what I've said for a couple years here - I kinda disagree with the consensus. I don't want this kid turning into Tom Brady - that's not where he'll excel.

Shooters shoot - let him shoot. It's innate for him and its dangerous as hell. Before we traded Hill and I wrote a novel on beating the Cover 2, I banged on the "no, we do not need to just dink and dunk to get them out of Cover 2" drum over and over again.

I still stand by that. You can beat Cover 2. You can even beat it deep. But you have to have more than one weapon out there. You needed to add MVS and Hardman TO Tyreek Hill. You need to challenge the corners more and put guys at decision points. Nobody WANTS to give up big plays and 'bend but don't break' isn't a new phenomenon. Teams have always attempted to make teams go about it the hard way. There's nothing novel to this idea.

And we responded to it by making it even easier for them.

The answer was not to get bigger and slower, IMO. It was to add MORE speed.

It seems the front office disagrees. I guess we'll see.
Well, I think he's going to have to prove he CAN be Tom Brady, when it's required, and until the defenses stop sitting back and denying his Mahomes'ness.

As far as 'more speed', I mean, MVS and Hardman are both damned near as fast as Hill is. As good? no, of course not. But as fast? Yeah.

I don't think we got slower at all at WR overall. Hardman and MVS are fractions of a tenth of a second slower than Hill, Watson is a 4.4 guy, and Moore is a 4.4-4.5 guy. All are faster than Pringle and Robinson. Hell, they're probably all faster than Sammy Watkins.

He's going to have to prove he can patiently Brady teams to death before they stop dropping 7. Then he'll get his deep shots. So far, he's not consistently shown he'll do that.

I love Mahomes, and I wouldn't trade him for anyone in football, but there's still some maturing to do there. He gets greedy and impatient.
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