Fastest TE in history to get 450 receptions and 6,000 yards. Needs 167 more to get 1,000 yards and become the first TE in history to get 1,000 receiving yards in 4 straight years. [Reply]
Originally Posted by JudasRising20:
Gronk gets injured falling out of bed every morning. Same with Antonio Gates. Those guys were both great but too fragile.
Meanwhile, Kelce and Gonzalez had crazy durability.
Do you think Gonzalez played with the same physicality as Gronk?
I think Kelce takes way more hits than Gonzalez did and thus there is no way he will have the longevity. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Megatron96:
Can't argue with any of that. Though imo, TG was a lot better than Witten, the eye test, if you will.
But yeah, Witten, though a very solid TE, never scared me. He was never going to take over a game. He'd just do Witten things.
TG was far more athletic and so could and did on occasion, but Kelce seems capable of doing it nearly every week. But then, the game is quite different than it was when TG was in his prime. The middle was a much more dangerous place back then.
And I'd have said exactly the same thing until I did just a little more digging. It's what made me wonder if my fan lenses didn't make the eye test a little more unreliable.
I mean - a 17 year career is a LOOOOOONG career. 270 games.
So you know what that means on a pro-rata basis? 8 more yards/game. It means every other game Tony G had a one more catch than Witten. It means every 8 games he had a TD that Witten didn't have.
I mean that's not nothing, don't get me wrong. It means that yes, Tony Gonzalez was definitely better than Witten. But 'a lot better'? Hmmm....I dunno.
Those two played in pretty similar environments. And for several years they were direct contemporaries. And yes, Witten had a better QB but I've said all the way back to the Dwayne Bowe era - I just don't think that bad quarterbacks impact the production of possession receivers that much, if at all. Because for every ball Damon Huard misfired trying to get the ball to TG, there's another that he forced into triple coverage to his security blanket. Or that he aborted his reads and fired to 88 as soon as he could.
I said it in the Hopkins vs. Hill conversations when people tried to talk about Hopkins having worse QB play and then I pointed out that having a better QB didn't meaningfully impact Hopkins production.
Does it make a player more IMPACTFUL? Sure - but in terms of raw counting stats, I don't think it makes a difference for guys like Witten and Gonzo. They get as much through 'security blanket' and garbage times catches/yards as they give up through missed connections.
And again - I'm not saying that Witten is TGs equal. He isn't. I'm just saying that those guys are awfully damn close in terms of their era, their style of play, their strengths and their production. So if you're willing to use Witten as a proxy for TG when you're 'ranking' guys, it starts to make things a whole lot more straightforward. [Reply]
Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501:
Yes, I used gates as a point of comparison based on pure athletic ability. You’re proving my point that the reason nobody puts him into the TE conversation was because he was a lousy blocker. I used witten as an example because he was an outstanding blocker but while he was once in the GOAT conversation he never really could get legs because he wasn’t even close to the elite level of other TEs as a receiver. I am using one attribute to discuss these guys, not saying these guys are in the conversation for GOAT. They’re not.
Gates isn't in that conversation because he got hurt. All the time. And then he fell apart physically, essentially becoming a glorified offensive lineman.
But for about a 6 year period there when he was healthy and dynamic, before the feet started messing with him, people were ABSOLUTELY putting him in the conversation as 'the new Tony Gonzalez' - oftentimes to the great chagrin of Chiefs fans.
But again - I'm not sure how this speaks to anyone's raw athleticism. Blocking is about technique and desire, especially for TEs. You're sitting here saying on one hand that Kelce's approach is what makes him great while simultaneously saying that his blocking is beneath the level of certain HoF caliber players. But...blocking IS about approach. Kittle isn't notably stronger than Kelce, if at all. He doesn't get out there and pancake guys because he's significantly stronger than Kelce. It's because he LOVES hitting guys. That's not athleticism - it's approach.
Gronk is the only guy to ever maul his way while blocking to any sort of prominence among the 'hushed tones' tight ends. And again, that style crippled his durability and his build made him LESS dynamic in most ways than Kelce has been. I just circle back around, again, to this 'athleticism' claim you're making. It simply doesn't hold up.
These guys were NOT more athletic than Kelce. And blocking wouldn't speak to it even if they were. [Reply]
Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501:
It doesn’t necessarily mean that. I think there is a ton to be said about playing the position the right way and I believe kelce did it better than anybody in history. Can you imagine if Jerry rice had speed or size like Randy moss? Rice isn’t even close to the most athletic receiver among the all time greats. That doesn’t mean athletic ability would’ve added a whole ton of stats to an insanely productive career. In fact I think kelce in a lot of ways is a more athletic version of Jerry rice. Much of their success is due to always being in the right place, running slick routes, and having outstanding ball instincts. Because they’re both absolutely elite in those areas.
While kelce had a head start over gonzo he’s also born a little bit on first base. As was gronk. Neither player has played much with a bad qb and they played in an aerial passing era. Both played for HOF coaches and kelce lined up next to a legit top tier WR. TG didn’t have those advantages. In fact I’d say his TD totals given his red zone skills would have been significantly better. Again, Without a shadow of a doubt im still taking kelce but it’s not quite the gap you’re making it to be. What gonzo did with the kind of talent he was surrounded with is really incredible too.
You creamed your jeans over Christian Watson, didn't you?
Being tall and running fast in a straight line is not the end all, be all of athleticism. Trying to say that Jerry Rice isn't among the most athletic WRs of all time demonstrates that you just have a real odd definition of athletic. He absolutely was.
He's ability to make cuts without losing any speed and all then immediately hit his top end was remarkable. It's what made him absolutely uncoverable in that WCO system. Was he gonna sky over dudes like Moss? No, but that's why Moss became a damn verb. But Moss wasn't out there making those speed cuts either. Moss was a different kind of athlete, but not a clearly better one that Rice.
Before he got hurt, over his first 11 seasons Jerry Rice averaged 16 yards per reception (Moss managed 16 yards/reception in 4 seasons over his entire career). You think he 'smarted' his way to that? No way - he ran around and past guys to rack up that kind of damage.
Was Larry Fitzgerald among the most athletic of the all-time great WRs? No, no he was not. Was Jerry Fucking Rice - the best football player of all time - among the most athletic WRs ever? Jesus Christ...dafuq do I even need to answer that question for? Of COURSE he was. That dude was a monster. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Chiefnj2:
Do you think Gonzalez played with the same physicality as Gronk?
I think Kelce takes way more hits than Gonzalez did and thus there is no way he will have the longevity.
I don't know who was more physical than who, but I definitely remember Gonzalez as a physical player. DBs had a hell of a time bringing him down. [Reply]
Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501:
And what if TG had mahomes for even half of his career? In an era where 5k passing yards is the norm?
He still wouldn't be as productive as Kelce. Because he's not as athletic as Kelce - at all.
What if TG had a QB that went through progressions instead of force-feeding him the ball? What if TG had a guy like Tyreek Hill out there siphoning off targets?
What if, what if, what if....
Again - Tony Gonzalez was not appreciably more productive than Jason Witten over the course of their careers. Careers that overlapped for a significant portion and careers that didn't see an enormous change in playing style for their respective peaks.
Tony Gonzalez was an excellent possession receiver and one of the best red zone weapons of all time. He was NOT the route runner Kelce is. He was not as fast or fluid as Kelce is.
Oh - and can we stop acting like TG has shit-ass quarterbacks and coaches his entire career? Dude played for 5 years with Trent Green and Dick Vermeil - Y'know, the same number of years that Travis Kelce has played with Reid/Mahomes. Those Chiefs offenses led the league in scoring and/or yards 4 times in that span, IIRC. He didn't have some pile-driving mongoloid and scattershot spread monkey throwing him footballs his whole career.
But good offense/bad offense - good HC/Bad HC - it didn't make much difference to his productivity. Because it just typically doesn't for possession receivers. And that's what TG was. [Reply]
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
He still wouldn't be as productive as Kelce. Because he's not as athletic as Kelce - at all.
What if TG had a QB that went through progressions instead of force-feeding him the ball? What if TG had a guy like Tyreek Hill out there siphoning off targets?
What if, what if, what if....
Again - Tony Gonzalez was not appreciably more productive than Jason Witten over the course of their careers. Careers that overlapped for a significant portion and careers that didn't see an enormous change in playing style for their respective peaks.
Tony Gonzalez was an excellent possession receiver and one of the best red zone weapons of all time. He was NOT the route runner Kelce is. He was not as fast or fluid as Kelce is.
Oh - and can we stop acting like TG has shit-ass quarterbacks and coaches his entire career? Dude played for 5 years with Trent Green and Dick Vermeil - Y'know, the same number of years that Travis Kelce has played with Reid/Mahomes. Those Chiefs offenses led the league in scoring and/or yards 4 times in that span, IIRC. He didn't have some pile-driving mongoloid and scattershot spread monkey throwing him footballs his whole career.
But good offense/bad offense - good HC/Bad HC - it didn't make much difference to his productivity. Because it just typically doesn't for possession receivers. And that's what TG was.
TG was pretty athletic remember he played basketball. TG smoked corners and was routinely guarded by 2-3 players. Baldy does a good breakdown of TG and this is a good reminder how awesome he was.
Originally Posted by dirk digler:
TG was pretty athletic remember he played basketball. TG smoked corners and was routinely guarded by 2-3 players. Baldy does a good breakdown of TG and this is a good reminder how awesome he was.
And like I said - I think it's all relative.
Tony Gonzalez was toasting Marvcus Patton. Those guys can't get on the field anymore. He was eating against Bernard Pollard types - nowadays the Raiders convert a first round pick in Jonathan Abrams to LBer. Can you see a guy like a 32 yr old James Hasty making an All-Pro team these days? I LOVED Hasty, but he made Richard Sherman look like Deion Sanders. These were different levels of athlete out there.
And again - I am not arguing for a second that he wasn't an historically great contested catch guy. He absolutely was - he knew his angles and how to go after the football. And developed outstanding hands as his career progressed. Like I said - one of the best red zone weapons ever. A great player, absolutely. [Reply]
Kelce's stats are insane. Really starting in 2017 when Alex had his great last season in KC and especially when Mahomes took over in 2018. He's just been absolutely tearing the league apart at the fucking seams.
Guess what. He just might be on track for his best season ever this year. Scary... [Reply]
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
And like I said - I think it's all relative.
Tony Gonzalez was toasting Marvcus Patton. Those guys can't get on the field anymore. He was eating against Bernard Pollard types - nowadays the Raiders convert a first round pick in Jonathan Abrams to LBer. Can you see a guy like a 32 yr old James Hasty making an All-Pro team these days? I LOVED Hasty, but he made Richard Sherman look like Deion Sanders. These were different levels of athlete out there.
And again - I am not arguing for a second that he wasn't an historically great contested catch guy. He absolutely was - he knew his angles and how to go after the football. And developed outstanding hands as his career progressed. Like I said - one of the best red zone weapons ever. A great player, absolutely.
Holy hell I forgot about Marvcus Patton. What a chiseled Greek marble statue that guy was. My god. That's one linebacker you don't wanna meet in a dark alley. [Reply]
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
And like I said - I think it's all relative.
Tony Gonzalez was toasting Marvcus Patton. Those guys can't get on the field anymore. He was eating against Bernard Pollard types - nowadays the Raiders convert a first round pick in Jonathan Abrams to LBer. Can you see a guy like a 32 yr old James Hasty making an All-Pro team these days? I LOVED Hasty, but he made Richard Sherman look like Deion Sanders. These were different levels of athlete out there.
And again - I am not arguing for a second that he wasn't an historically great contested catch guy. He absolutely was - he knew his angles and how to go after the football. And developed outstanding hands as his career progressed. Like I said - one of the best red zone weapons ever. A great player, absolutely.
Don't disagree just wanted to watch a video to remind myself how great he really was. His last year in 2013 I would consider in the modern era and at age 37 had 83 catches for 859 yds and 8 TD's. I have no doubt he would eat in 2022 just the same. [Reply]
