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Saccopoo Memorial Draft Forum>Mathieu v. Ward: Who Ya Got?
Direckshun 09:23 AM 11-23-2021
I think we all doubt the Chiefs can re-sign both of these players.

So if you had to re-sign either of these players this coming offseason and let the other walk, which one and why?
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DJ's left nut 04:18 PM 11-28-2021
This secondary really clicked into position when Fenton proved himself capable of playing wide and allowed Sneed to float into the slot more.

Ward allows us to maintain that dynamic. I just think he does more for us in that he really frees up Fenton. Otherwise you’re talking about Fenton and Sneed as full time boundary corners amd am aging Mathieu being asked to fill that spot role almost exclusively.

Yeah- sticking with Ward. The return of Ward and emergence of Fenton is when this secondary really took off.
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jd1020 04:42 PM 11-28-2021
Originally Posted by Chris Meck:
If you think Ward is as impactful to our defense as Mathieu is...well, I don't know what to tell you. Watch closer, I guess.
So you think Ward being better or worse doesn't have as much of an impact on the defense as Mathieu?

Mathieu goes out there and allows a 118.8 passer rating against the Raiders and people think he shutdown Waller all on his lonesome.

I'm sorry, but Ward playing like he has been recently has a much bigger impact on the defense than Mathieu at safety. I mean... you indirectly admitted it when you said that him being average would net the same kind of money as Mathieu being elite.
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CatfishBob2 06:19 PM 11-28-2021
Originally Posted by Megatron96:
I guess I donít see the argument here. I honey badger is a better athlete and a better football player and has a much higher football IQ than Ward, period. Seems pretty simple to me. And I like ward, but itís much easier to replace ward than it is to replace Tyrann.

And I could care less about the social media stuff. I donít pay any attention to it in the first place, and I honestly donít get why anybody else does. It has the same relevance to football as worrying about what color underwear Andy Reid wears to the games. Which is to say absolutely nothing.
It's time to give the social media stuff a rest. But I think it will be cheaper to keep Ward and I think there is some upside to doing so. I wish there was a way we could trade him as opposed to just letting him walk though
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Nightfyre 06:20 PM 11-28-2021
Let's bracket the deals :
Mathieu 15-17m per year, four years, minimal dead cap in year four.
Ward 8-12m per year, 5 years, June 1 viable cut in year four.

Who do you pay, given these ranges?
What's your top dollar for each?

For me, Ward and Fenton outside with Sneed bumping to the slot makes a ton of sense. Plus with the savings you can still pick up a decent safety.
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Buehler445 06:28 PM 11-28-2021
Originally Posted by Nightfyre:
Let's bracket the deals :
Mathieu 15-17m per year, four years, minimal dead cap in year four.
Ward 8-12m per year, 5 years, June 1 viable cut in year four.

Who do you pay, given these ranges?
What's your top dollar for each?

For me, Ward and Fenton outside with Sneed bumping to the slot makes a ton of sense. Plus with the savings you can still pick up a decent safety.

Ward.

But its the years not the money with Mathieu for me.
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Chris Meck 08:58 PM 11-28-2021
Originally Posted by jd1020:
So you think Ward being better or worse doesn't have as much of an impact on the defense as Mathieu?

Mathieu goes out there and allows a 118.8 passer rating against the Raiders and people think he shutdown Waller all on his lonesome.

I'm sorry, but Ward playing like he has been recently has a much bigger impact on the defense than Mathieu at safety. I mean... you indirectly admitted it when you said that him being average would net the same kind of money as Mathieu being elite.
corners get paid more than safeties is what I meant, and I think you know that.

I'm talking about cap dollars per position. I think you know that too.
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jd1020 09:29 PM 11-28-2021
Originally Posted by Chris Meck:
corners get paid more than safeties is what I meant, and I think you know that.

I'm talking about cap dollars per position. I think you know that too.
Ask yourself why that's the case. I think you know that.
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Chris Meck 06:47 AM 11-29-2021
Originally Posted by jd1020:
Ask yourself why that's the case. I think you know that.
:-)

Do you just talk past people like this in real life?

you're really just trying to create some self satisfied gotcha moment. You're not really even trying to discuss anything.

You feel like Ward is the right choice, that's fine and there are legitimate reasons to make that choice. I personally feel that perhaps it's best to move on from both, but if I had to choose, I would choose Mathieu but only on a short deal due to his age.

You can try to paint that as stupid, but it's clearly, objectively not.

Or we could have an actual conversation, you know, in which you actually consider another point of view and then agree or disagree and communicate your thoughts.

It is my opinion that corners are overvalued in the NFL due to the rules being what they are. So I don't think the difference in salaries between CB's and safeties is warranted. I think in particular, safeties that do a lot of work 'in the box' in the run game as well as have good cover skills-I think that has a bigger impact on a play to play basis all game long than an above average corner does.

That's my opinion, as someone who's watched football since 1978 and understands coverages and has watched as the game has changed pretty dramatically in that time.

I think Ward is a GOOD player, but I think financially we should let him walk and re-stock. I also think Veach, Spags, and Madison have shown great skill in coaching up late picks and UDFA's into good players, Ward being example #1.

If paying Ward OR Mathieu prohibits KC from spending on the defensive line, they should not do it. Everything starts with the ability to pressure with 4.
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jd1020 07:35 AM 11-29-2021
Originally Posted by Chris Meck:
:-)

Do you just talk past people like this in real life?

you're really just trying to create some self satisfied gotcha moment. You're not really even trying to discuss anything.
How is this not discussing anything?

Generally people dont contradict themselves so willfully as you seem to do when it comes to this subject.

"I think its hard to argue its all on the front 4" .... "What I meant was its hard to argue AGAINST"

"If you think Ward is more impactful than Mathieu then look harder" ... "Ward being average will make as much money as Mathieu being elite"

Here's the real problem with your logic beyond your obvious contradictions in everything you fucking say.

Mathieu has a 72.4 passer rating allowed on the year. Ward was out for the section of the season where the defense was completely fucking trash, Mathieu was not. Ward didn't get back til week 7. He's currently allowed a 73 passer rating. Not only is Ward's impact more clearly felt on the field, but like DJ said, paired with Fenton it allows the team to move Sneed to the inside where he has shown to be much better.

So it's not me that should be looking harder...
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Chris Meck 09:05 AM 11-29-2021
Originally Posted by jd1020:
How is this not discussing anything?

Generally people dont contradict themselves so willfully as you seem to do when it comes to this subject.

"I think its hard to argue its all on the front 4" .... "What I meant was its hard to argue AGAINST"

"If you think Ward is more impactful than Mathieu then look harder" ... "Ward being average will make as much money as Mathieu being elite"

Here's the real problem with your logic beyond your obvious contradictions in everything you ****ing say.

Mathieu has a 72.4 passer rating allowed on the year. Ward was out for the section of the season where the defense was completely ****ing trash, Mathieu was not. Ward didn't get back til week 7. He's currently allowed a 73 passer rating. Not only is Ward's impact more clearly felt on the field, but like DJ said, paired with Fenton it allows the team to move Sneed to the inside where he has shown to be much better.

So it's not me that should be looking harder...
Dude. I haven't contradicted anything.

It's hard to argue that it's all on the front four. As in 'it's hard to argue the fact' that's it's all on the front four. It's implied in the sentence, but I can see how you could misinterpret. I was unclear, but nonetheless, I've clarified this for you. You can accept that, or keep insisting that I was saying something else, but says more about YOU than it does me at this point.

Mathieu does A LOT more than just cover. You don't acknowledge that. I do. That's why I feel he's more important to the overall defense than any single CB. You can disagree, and we can discuss why, but if you're just going to ignore my clarifications and insist I have a position that I don't have, then you're just talking past me and not interested in discussion. You're trying to score points, and that's not a discussion.

Ward got back in week 7...which is also about the time when we got Ingram, moved Jones back to DT more often, and Frank Clark decided to actually...like, try hard. So the front four has been MUCH better. It's not a shock that the secondary's statistics also shot up that same week. You can believe that's all about Ward, but I believe it's mostly about the front four. I like Ward, I think he's a good player, I'm not saying he isn't.

I believe that the absolute most important thing in the success of an NFL defense, with the current rules regarding secondary play is that you MUST be able to pressure and disrupt the offense while rushing 4. I think that's paramount. Is my opinion clear? I've said it multiple times in multiple threads for several years, but just in case you missed it- It's ALL about the front 4 in MY opinion.

For this reason, my personal opinion is that CB's are OVER valued, and I think versatile safeties like Mathieu are UNDER valued. Separate discussion, and we can disagree, but I think a guy like Ward affects passing plays only more or less, and a guy like Mathieu affects every facet of the offense, running, passing,etc. His football intelligence is off the charts. I have concerns about his age, and so I wouldn't sign him to a long deal, but given a CHOICE between Ward and Mathieu, I would choose Mathieu. My overall choice would be to let both go and re-stock. But IF I HAD to pick one, I would choose Mathieu.

I have no idea what the Chiefs will do; although if it comes to that choice I bet they'll sign Mathieu as I don't see Spags wanting to lose all 3 position group leaders in the same off-season. But we'll see.
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jd1020 09:38 AM 11-29-2021
It's not just a choice between Mathieu and Ward.

It's a choice of Mathieu vs the ripple effect of having Ward on the outside being a pretty damn good CB.

It's pretty damn close to the effect Ingram had on the front for the secondary.

Do you think Mathieu provides more than Sneed?

Since Ward came back and it's been Fenton and Ward on the outside lets compare Mathieu vs Sneed.

Mathieu: 24 tackles, 1 QB hit, 1 TFL, 1 PD

Sneed: 32 tackles, 2 QB hits, 2 TFL, 5 PD, 2 INTs

Now which is easier to replace? A pretty damn good CB or a 30 year old safety thats losing a step on the field?
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Chris Meck 09:47 AM 11-29-2021
Originally Posted by jd1020:
It's not just a choice between Mathieu and Ward.

It's a choice of Mathieu vs the ripple effect of having Ward on the outside being a pretty damn good CB.

It's pretty damn close to the effect Ingram had on the front for the secondary.

Do you think Mathieu provides more than Sneed?

Since Ward came back and it's been Fenton and Ward on the outside lets compare Mathieu vs Sneed.

Mathieu: 24 tackles, 1 QB hit, 1 PD

Sneed: 32 tackles, 2 QB hits, 5 PD, 2 INTs
Ward's been very good. Sneed's been great. I would argue that Sneed is more important than Ward due to his positional versatility, superior blitzing ability and his aggressive tackling.

Does he provide more than Sneed? Not on the stat sheet at this point in the season. But there are a lot of things that aren't on the stat sheet that having a Mathieu on the field make possible.

What's the ripple effect of Mathieu not being on the field? Sorensen gets 100% of the snaps again? I'd say that would be a bad ripple effect.

I just think you're looking at things in isolation and looking for statistics to back that view rather than considering the whole.
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RunKC 09:49 AM 11-29-2021
Corner has been the one position group that they have had the most success at. In no way am I worried about replacing Ward.

If they keep him then that’s fine but I hope they don’t overpay.
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jd1020 09:51 AM 11-29-2021
Originally Posted by Chris Meck:
What's the ripple effect of Mathieu not being on the field? Sorensen gets 100% of the snaps again? I'd say that would be a bad ripple effect.
Sneed and Thornhill. Next?
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DJ's left nut 10:02 AM 11-29-2021
Originally Posted by Chris Meck:
Ward's been very good. Sneed's been great. I would argue that Sneed is more important than Ward due to his positional versatility, superior blitzing ability and his aggressive tackling.

Does he provide more than Sneed? Not on the stat sheet at this point in the season. But there are a lot of things that aren't on the stat sheet that having a Mathieu on the field make possible.

What's the ripple effect of Mathieu not being on the field? Sorensen gets 100% of the snaps again? I'd say that would be a bad ripple effect.

I just think you're looking at things in isolation and looking for statistics to back that view rather than considering the whole.
Sneed is absolutely more important than Ward due to his positional versatility.

But without Ward, you're probably resigned to Sneed playing boundary every snap. That's going to largely neutralize his blitzing ability and his first-step quickness is so crucial in the slot. Moreover, there just aren't many guys with his kind of athleticism that also have his size and physicality. He's essentially Marlon Humphrey in the slot. Keeping Ward allows you to continue utilizing him in that way.

Otherwise your options are Sneed out wide or trying to get something out of Baker in the boundary role and he's just not looked up for that.

And ultimately I think a Mathieu deal is a 2 year deal with a dead cap charge in year 3; it's far more of a band-aid. And you're paying market price for him+ due to his name value. So there's likely nothing but downside in that deal. Meanwhile Ward may still be a tick undervalued and a 4 year deal likely has him around all 4 years. There's more upside baked into a Ward deal, IMO.
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