Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
A lot of Conley's numbers were excellent but the one that stood out was the one that doomed him - dude's 3-cone time was abysmal.
And you saw it in his route running from day 1 here. He simply couldn't get in and out of his breaks well enough to be a difference maker.
Hardman appears to have better feet though I don't think he ran the 3-cone. That alone will make his ceiling in this offense significantly higher than Conley's.
I still think he was a reach, but Andy's the best in the business at scheming guys into space and if you can give this kid a little running room before he gets the ball, it's a big play waiting to happen.
I don’t know why. There were a lot of rumblings as it got closer to the draft that he wasn’t making it out the 2nd round. [Reply]
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
Mentioned that in the Hill thread.
I think Reid has found a tactical advantage in just making DBs chase some of these guys. Robinson is dangerous in that regard as well.
At any given time the Chiefs can send 4 guys out there who can demonstrate genuine upper quartile NFL speed. Hill, Watkins, Robinson and Hardman can all be rotated and run until the damn DBs just can't run anymore.
It's the inverse to the old school "run the ball 35 times in 3 quarters and those LBers aren't gonna wanna hit in the 4th anymore...." idea.
Well if you spend 3 quarters with DBs chasing those jackrabbits all over the place, they're gonna feel it in their legs by the 4th.
And the Chiefs can actually be effective at it because DB's MUST respect the vertical game.
This isn't the Alex Smith Chiefs where a DB can make the decision to simply let the vertical route go and play the underneath stuff, and guess right 90% of the time.
Vertical routes are not "dummy" routes with the Chiefs. They're not simply there to stretch a defense. They're legitimate threats every single play and must be respected as such, thus FORCING those DB's to run. They can't afford to "only kinda" cover it. [Reply]
Originally Posted by O.city:
It's pretty crazy to go back and watch some highlights of last year where there are times that guys are just....open. Some of that is because we have some badasses at skill spots for sure, but Andy is just a damn wizard with that stuff.
I mean it's one thing for Tyreek to just outrun a guy, but when you get some crazy route combo where Kelce is just flying across the middle with no one around him, it's awesome.
What was crazy was 2013.
That team had dick for offensive talent. I mean absolutely nothing. You have Kelce in effectively his rookie season, Bowe diving headlong into his 'eating his way out of the league' years, Charles and scraps. Fasano, Thomas, Avery, Avant. Junior !@#$ing Hemingway. AJ Jenkins. I mean this is just dogshit across the board.
And while it wasn't an aerial circus out there, Reid was scheming guys into space. I was floored at the times that he'd end up popping of some route combination that got Anthany Fasano rumbling about with 6-8 yards of free grass around him.
None of it made sense.
With the number of guys he has now that can just win an individual matchup, he's just toying with teams. But man, watching him work with both hands tied behind his back and a foot in a walking boot was just impressive as hell. The guy was putting together a credible offense with complete garbage to work with. That team finished 6th in the league in points scored and I will never understand how he did it. [Reply]
There's an advantage to being able to take vertical shots without having to scheme it as a shot play. A lot of teams seemingly have to do that via formations and such, the Chiefs can just do it via talent.
If There's a formation where they can get Hill and Kelce in the slot with Hardman outside that is going to stress the interior of the Defensive backfield a shit load [Reply]
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
What was crazy was 2013.
That team had dick for offensive talent. I mean absolutely nothing. You have Kelce in effectively his rookie season, Bowe diving headlong into his 'eating his way out of the league' years, Charles and scraps. Fasano, Thomas, Avery, Avant. Junior !@#$ing Hemingway. AJ Jenkins. I mean this is just dogshit across the board.
And while it wasn't an aerial circus out there, Reid was scheming guys into space. I was floored at the times that he'd end up popping of some route combination that got Anthany Fasano rumbling about with 6-8 yards of free grass around him.
None of it made sense.
With the number of guys he has now that can just win an individual matchup, he's just toying with teams. But man, watching him work with both hands tied behind his back and a foot in a walking boot was just impressive as hell. The guy was putting together a credible offense with complete garbage to work with. That team finished 6th in the league in points scored and I will never understand how he did it.
They didn't even have Kelce that year. It was Charles and a bunch of dudes.
Man, if you could introduce 2013 Jamal Charles into this current offense....I'm not really sure that's not the best offense in the history of the league. The screen game Andy would run with that would just demolish people. [Reply]
Originally Posted by staylor26:
I don’t know why. There were a lot of rumblings as it got closer to the draft that he wasn’t making it out the 2nd round.
Because the WR board was still extremely strong at that point in the draft so I don't think they had to go up to get him or would've lost much by not taking him.
Arcega-Whiteside, Campbell, Isabella, McLaurin and a few other similarly situated guys were all still on the board. And yes, Hardman's faster than all of them, but he's also a lot more raw.
Like I said - if he's a 35 catch, 600 yard kind of player for us, that's a fine 2nd rounder. I won't complain about the long-term production of the pick at that point. I just think there were some safer guys to take there if you're committed to WR and some flat out more critical needs to deal with if you weren't.
I sure hope they're right about TE2 man - I think Sternberger and Oliver as a high-use TE2 could've added some serious wrinkles to this offense and been a better use of that pick. But time will tell... [Reply]
Originally Posted by Detoxing:
And the Chiefs can actually be effective at it because DB's MUST respect the vertical game.
This isn't the Alex Smith Chiefs where a DB can make the decision to simply let the vertical route go and play the underneath stuff, and guess right 90% of the time.
Vertical routes are not "dummy" routes with the Chiefs. They're not simply there to stretch a defense. They're legitimate threats every single play and must be respected as such, thus FORCING those DB's to run. They can't afford to "only kinda" cover it.
Right - you have Mahomes coming out after he threw his 50th TD and saying "yeah, we just sandlotted that shit; completely ad-libbed a 90 yard TD bomb..."
You think coaches don't realize that's a possibility on any given snap? Hell yes they do. And when these guys just continue to develop chemistry with Mahomes, it becomes 6th sense kind of voodoo.
There's absolutely value in having another weapon that can just make guys run around. [Reply]
Originally Posted by O.city:
They didn't even have Kelce that year. It was Charles and a bunch of dudes.
Man, if you could introduce 2013 Jamal Charles into this current offense....I'm not really sure that's not the best offense in the history of the league. The screen game Andy would run with that would just demolish people.
Shit, that's right - Kelce was back in '14 (when the talent level was just as !@#$ing bad).
Reid's a magician. And the offense he runs now is NOTHING like the offense he ran then. Dude just made up a new scheme on the fly.
I hope to hell we can get him a championship. He deserves to be considered among the top 5-10 coaches in the history of this game. [Reply]
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
Right - you have Mahomes coming out after he threw his 50th TD and saying "yeah, we just sandlotted that shit; completely ad-libbed a 90 yard TD bomb..."
You think coaches don't realize that's a possibility on any given snap? Hell yes they do. And when these guys just continue to develop chemistry with Mahomes, it becomes 6th sense kind of voodoo.
There's absolutely value in having another weapon that can just make guys run around.
I'm actually not a fan of that being a big part of the game. I know it has it's place, but that's kinda why I don't really care for Robinson long term.
As Pat learns and grows he's going to become more of a pocket machine and we need guys being where they're supposed to be timing wise. I dunno that Robinson is that. [Reply]
Originally Posted by O.city:
We just don't know what they thought of those other WR's in this particular role or offense.
I think Campbell could have done it, but if they think Hardman has higher upside, whatever.
Being able to add Thornhill at the next pick made it ok for me. I think he's gonna be a stud.
Isabella probably could've stood in there nicely as well, but he's just soooooo smaaaallll.
He's a slot guy only long-term because of that. And with the diminished catch radius he may not be able to fully take advantage of Mahomes ability to get balls into areas that most QBs can't.
Maybe they look at Hardman as a guy who's development could make him a long-term X receiver here whereas Isabella, who's learning curve is unlikely to be as steep, would be a slot guy only. Having the potential to transition to the X is pretty critical here given the likelihood of losing Watkins.
I think it's all rearview rationalizing though - Veach thought he was losing Hill and wanted badly to ensure they had a speed threat out there long-term to keep the middle open. [Reply]
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
Isabella probably could've stood in there nicely as well, but he's just soooooo smaaaallll.
He's a slot guy only long-term because of that. And with the diminished catch radius he may not be able to fully take advantage of Mahomes ability to get balls into areas that most QBs can't.
Maybe they look at Hardman as a guy who's development could make him a long-term X receiver here whereas Isabella, who's learning curve is unlikely to be as steep, would be a slot guy only. Having the potential to transition to the X is pretty critical here given the likelihood of losing Watkins.
I think it's all rearview rationalizing though - Veach thought he was losing Hill and wanted badly to ensure they had a speed threat out there long-term to keep the middle open.
Yeah, I think that was probably a more likely case, in which I can't totally blame him. But theres not a scenario where you can "replace" Hill so it may have been a little quick on the draw. [Reply]