But I see a lot of parallels to the Hill situation. Unquestionably elite player surrounded by JAGs. Potential huge haul in draft capital as well as salary cap relief.
Jones plus whatever dudes isn't getting it done. We won't be drafting in position to properly re-stock LT or DE if we keep him, and we can't afford top of the market replacements.
Maybe we should move him. What kind of haul do you think we could get? [Reply]
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
The difference between Lawson and what's likely to be available as a FA is that I think Lawson could be better than those guys.
I just don't know how much I'd be willing to gamble on that.
2020 Lawson was a DAMN good player. And it sure looked like the development curve of an emerging top talent. But he got hurt and we've seen too many instances of guys just never fully recapturing their previous skill levels.
We're beyond the what-ifs with Lawson, in my opinion. He's been in the league for 5 years. In two of those years, he's suffered an ACL and an Achilles. He had two full seasons following the ACL and was average. He hasn't been any better following the Achilles and it undoubtedly halted any appreciable growth curve. He is what he is and that's a very average DE. [Reply]
Originally Posted by kccrow:
We're beyond the what-ifs with Lawson, in my opinion. He's been in the league for 5 years. In two of those years, he's suffered an ACL and an Achilles. He had two full seasons following the ACL and was average. He hasn't been any better following the Achilles and it undoubtedly halted any appreciable growth curve. He is what he is and that's a very average DE.
I think that's probably about 80% likely to be the case, yeah.
We just see this happen all the time. Heck, it may have happened to Thornhill and we just haven't accepted it yet. Injuries are a problem in a vacuum, obviously, but the development time they cost a player is almost as damning.
Sooner or later that window on improvement closes and yeah, there's an awfully good chance that's the case with Lawson. [Reply]
If I were Veach, I'm 100% keeping Jones and bundling picks to move up and draft a DE in the 1st. Probably draft a DT in the 2nd or 3rd, as well. [Reply]
I think this ends up being the biggest offseason in Veach's tenure here.
They traded Tyreek so they could spread out the money and have the picks etc. Thus far (it's still super young) the defense hasn't shown much improvement. He's gotta nail some stuff this offseason to get it atleast into the top, what, 15ish of the league statistically?
It's not gonna be easy with the whole LT situation as well, he's got his work cut out for him.
Tying that into Jones situation, I think trading him just makes it a whole lot harder to build back. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Chris Meck:
You can exchange 'Jones' and 'DT' for 'Hill' and 'WR' and you sound like me last offseason when the idea of moving Hill was brought up.
The question-and what it's proving difficult to even discuss because the emotional gut reaction is to scream-"FUCK NO!" is whether you can improve at two or three or perhaps even four spots if you DO part with Jones-and does that make your TEAM better?
I get it, I was in the "FUCK NO!" camp last offseason with moving Hill.
If we're currently the #24 defense in football, that means there are 23 defenses that are better than we are that do not have Chris Jones. So clearly, there are paths to good defense that do not include Jonesy.
If moving Jones gives us a first round pick in range to grab a LT in the first so that we have that position solved and cost controlled for 5 years, that's a big deal. If it frees up enough cash that we can sign a couple or three upgrages on the defensive line, you can field a better front four than Jones plus JAGS.
Now, I'm not saying we NEED to. I'm not even saying that I WANT to. I don't think anyone is, just that it's entirely POSSIBLE that moving Jones could be the best way to acquiring better OVERALL talent that makes the TEAM better-even though you're never replacing Jones on a one-to-one basis.
But if moving Jonesy nets you a 3-to-1 improvement, that's something you have to consider, especially picking around #30 every year.
So looking at the Bills Bengals game....I think makes the case for why you don't trade a guy like Jones.
It worries me for the offense going forward a bit in these playoffs but we've got Mahomes and Andy there, so we should be fine.
But the Bills defense has a bunch of good solid players on it that they've drafted. They've done what everyone here wants the Chiefs to do, load up the depth.
Well, once they got to the playoffs and ran into an elite offense with difference makers.....we saw what happened. In one game elimination games...you need dudes. Not just good players, but "dudes" that can wreck a play. Look at the NFC teams left standing. [Reply]
Originally Posted by O.city:
So looking at the Bills Bengals game....I think makes the case for why you don't trade a guy like Jones.
It worries me for the offense going forward a bit in these playoffs but we've got Mahomes and Andy there, so we should be fine.
But the Bills defense has a bunch of good solid players on it that they've drafted. They've done what everyone here wants the Chiefs to do, load up the depth.
Well, once they got to the playoffs and ran into an elite offense with difference makers.....we saw what happened. In one game elimination games...you need dudes. Not just good players, but "dudes" that can wreck a play. Look at the NFC teams left standing.
I mean he didn't have any sacks.
We should probably just dump him for cap relief so we can extend Frank Clark. [Reply]
Originally Posted by O.city:
So looking at the Bills Bengals game....I think makes the case for why you don't trade a guy like Jones.
It worries me for the offense going forward a bit in these playoffs but we've got Mahomes and Andy there, so we should be fine.
But the Bills defense has a bunch of good solid players on it that they've drafted. They've done what everyone here wants the Chiefs to do, load up the depth.
Well, once they got to the playoffs and ran into an elite offense with difference makers.....we saw what happened. In one game elimination games...you need dudes. Not just good players, but "dudes" that can wreck a play. Look at the NFC teams left standing.
And the most critical takeaway of the Bills/Bengals game was DJ Reader, IMO.
Reader is really REALLY good and when he's on the field, so is that Bengals defense.
Take Reader away and they're just not that dangerous a unit. He makes an enormous difference for them.
And he STILL doesn't make as big a difference as Chris Jones does for the Chiefs. [Reply]
Originally Posted by O.city:
So looking at the Bills Bengals game....I think makes the case for why you don't trade a guy like Jones.
It worries me for the offense going forward a bit in these playoffs but we've got Mahomes and Andy there, so we should be fine.
But the Bills defense has a bunch of good solid players on it that they've drafted. They've done what everyone here wants the Chiefs to do, load up the depth.
Well, once they got to the playoffs and ran into an elite offense with difference makers.....we saw what happened. In one game elimination games...you need dudes. Not just good players, but "dudes" that can wreck a play. Look at the NFC teams left standing.
In 2 of 3 games against Cincy (both in Cincy's stadium), the Bengals offense absolutely torched a KC defense featuring Chris Jones. Having Jones did not make one bit of positive difference in those 2 games. In that type of shootout game, I think KC would have been better off with a stronger OL or another weapon to help put them over the top. It was Cincy's defense making a few key plays here and there that made the difference.
Chiefs defense managed to do much better in the Cincy playoff game at Arrowhead last year, and we'll see if they can do that again this year. If they get torched once again, then it's 3 out of 4 games where Chris Jones has not been able to be a difference maker. And I would say once again that if it's going to be a shootout, you should put more resources into a stronger OL or better weapons to put you over the top against a pretty good Cincy defense. [Reply]
Originally Posted by O.city:
"Put better resources into the OL"
Better than a LT on the Tag, a LG who is one of the highest paid players at his position, a 2nd round all pro C?
I mean, ok, maybe pay a RT but come on.
LT & RT are both problematic. Anyway, I also mentioned weapons. Another weapon would help in those shootout games. Zero doubt about that. The defense isn't winning the game for you. [Reply]