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Saccopoo Memorial Draft Forum>Secondary?
Direckshun 10:49 AM 01-04-2022
How badly do you guys think we need to make investments in the secondary?

Here is our secondary depth chart in 2022 right now:

CB: Sneed, Fenton
S: Thornhill, Zayne Anderson

That's it. That's who we have under contract.

Surely there will be some people we sign to futures and bring back from this roster in places, like DiCaprio Bootle, but none of them move the needle.

Mathieu, Ward, Sorensen, Hughes, Baker, and Watts are all free agents.

There's been some debate as to whether we bring back Ward, who we all really like, though I do think we agree his uppermost limitation is against Jamar Chase. I think Ward played his ass off against Chase, but just couldn't hang with him. To say nothing of the fact that Fenton was clearly outmatched on the other side, and may not be a full time starter anyway.

That being said, what kind of resources should we explore in the secondary? The Bengals are clearly not going anywhere.

Just goes to show you, you need to be a flexible defense to win it all in the NFL. Some teams like to space you out and air it out, like the Bengals. Other teams like to pound you up front.
[Reply]
Buehler445 10:56 AM 01-04-2022
IMO, if Chase is putting on the rape clinic he did Sunday, you don't island up Prime Revis on Chase if he's on like that.

My opinion is that Sunday's game shouldn't change your approach to the offseason.
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tmax63 11:02 AM 01-04-2022
I do think the Chiefs need to invest a high draft in the secondary. They've been doing it with late rounds and cast-offs for the last few years but it bit them in the ass Sunday.
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Chris Meck 11:25 AM 01-04-2022
I know I've said this a bunch of times, but The Bengals game just reinforced my view.

I would not spend high draft picks nor high market value cap room on corners. Whether you feel like the refs screwed us or not, the reality is that at any time, they can flag a corner if he does anything at all besides run alongside the receiver.

There are two ways to negatively affect an opposing offense's passing game: 1) relentless pass rush and 2) confuse the QB.

That's it really. That's all you're allowed these days.

So to that end, I think that smart, athletic, versatile safeties are really undervalued and outside corners are OVERvalued.

With smart, versatile safeties, you can disguise coverages pre-snap, blitz them, drop them, play zone, play man, play some kind of combo coverage and along with the killer pass rush you can cover long enough.

I would not pay Ward. Nothing against him, he's a quality player. But market value on him will not be worth what he can give you under the current rule enforcement. I would draft another 4th or 5th rounder, I'd re-sign Huges and Baker, and roll on at corner.

I'd definitely draft a S somewhere around the 3rd, and I'd probably re-sign Mathieu to something like a 3 year deal because his versatility allows you to do so much. I'd be looking for another guy or two like that. Sneed, for instance, is a guy I might well pay a 2nd contract to because he can do so many things, not just outside corner.

But I'm putting my money and my high draft resources on the front line.
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OKchiefs 11:43 AM 01-04-2022
safety is the area I think they need some investment at. It's still up in the air whether they bring Mathieu back, but even if they do they really have nobody after him and Thornhill. Absolutely do not want another year of Sorensen. They need a 3rd option at safety for depth and for packages where they have 3 safeties on the field.

I'm sure they'll manage to find some corners here or there for a decent price just like they always have.
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spanky 52 03:24 PM 01-04-2022
I think it all depends on what happens to Mr Clark and his legal issues in California. If he skates there should be a couple of nice safeties available at the end of the first round.
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T-post Tom 04:34 PM 01-04-2022
Yes please. Shutdown CB with speed. Or edge pass rusher. 1st round/locked up for 5 years!
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Chris Meck 07:03 PM 01-04-2022
Originally Posted by T-post Tom:
Yes please. Shutdown CB with speed. Or edge pass rusher. 1st round/locked up for 5 years!
There is no such thing as a shutdown corner in the modern NFL. There just isn't.
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CatfishBob2 09:33 PM 01-04-2022
My draft priority has been DE, cb, wr and it hasn't changed. Maybe a safety in the 4th or FA to replace Sorenson
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kccrow 10:14 PM 01-04-2022
I thought Ward played well in terms of assignment sound football and was even pretty good with his spacing on Chase but that's a tough cover for every CB in the NFL. I thought Ward's biggest failure was not using the sidelines well enough to his advantage; he needed to push Chase further outside on his routes. Ward's failures got compounded by Spags' insane approach of not providing any over-the-top bracket coverage to keep Chase from winning deep.

Call that performance what you want, I suppose, but I'm still a strong proponent of bringing Ward back on a long-term deal. He's a really good CB and, no, I'm not convinced Fenton is in the same stratosphere. Fenton has played well for less than 50% of snaps. That doesn't mean I feel 100% on him being a full-time starter. That said, I could see it if I'm looking at something else I'll discuss in a minute.

If the Chiefs don't invest in Ward, I don't see how you can't invest a higher pick there. There isn't another Ward/Sneed on the roster right now that can truly take over as an outside CB sans maybe Fenton but is Fenton up to the task?

And as for the rest of the secondary, you have to take a very long and hard look at the safeties and not feel comfortable. Mathieu, he's a good player. I think he's declined this year and his Twitter business leaves much to be desired. I'd cut bait there and look for youth. That decision would be much easier, though, if it weren't for the Sorensen situation.

Ahhhhh... Dan Sorensen. Everyone's favorite guy to hate, then love, then hate again. It's time to move on.

The way I see the safety situation is that you move the NFL's normal. The league has played around with special guys like Mathieu that can play in the box and can cover in the slot. They've played with guys like Sorensen that can play in the box and be a LB hybrid. But then there is this shift to the two-deep shell, and it's HIGHLY effective when done right.

So, I foresee more of a two-deep shell with dual free-safety types. Thornhill with Marcus Williams anyone? Williams is a guy that can step down and cover like a corner when needed and then fill out as supreme center-fielder. The same goes for Jessie Bates, although Williams is more likely to be available. I think a Williams/Thornhill back end gives you a lot of flexibility to not only play the two-deep shell but also morph out of it into other looks without substitutions.

And I'll say it again, I really, really like Sneed to replace Mathieu's role in the box. He's bigger and faster and tackles with more authority. Between he and Williams, they let you take a CB off the field to go LB heavy, take Thornhill off the field for even more coverage, or just morph in and out of any variety of coverages from a nickel look without doing anything from a sub standpoint.

My issue is, if I have Sneed in this hybrid role with dual FS's over the top, then what the hell to do at CB? Surely you'd have to put Fenton on the outside and draft a CB relatively early.

Conundrum. Do you play the shell game and get a Williams, keep Sneed out at CB with Fenton and look for the next Sneed (A reason I'm kinda high on Kyler Gordon)? Do you ditch the hybrid safety gameplan Mathieu and Sorensen brought to the table and go for a more traditional look and add a more athletic LB to the mix? Do you draft a couple of CBs?

It's a tough one, but in a predominately passing league I'd err towards having the best coverage setup I can and I think a two-deep shell with a box slot guy that can function as Sneed and Mathieu does is the best of all worlds. In other words, continue to live in that nickel base but you better be damned sure your front four is strong.

All of that text to say I'd be thrilled if I could snag Marcus Williams and retain Ward.
[Reply]
OKchiefs 11:54 PM 01-04-2022
Just saying, sure would have been nice to have Antoine Winfield Jr from the 2020 draft
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Chris Meck 06:44 AM 01-05-2022
Originally Posted by kccrow:
I thought Ward played well in terms of assignment sound football and was even pretty good with his spacing on Chase but that's a tough cover for every CB in the NFL. I thought Ward's biggest failure was not using the sidelines well enough to his advantage; he needed to push Chase further outside on his routes. Ward's failures got compounded by Spags' insane approach of not providing any over-the-top bracket coverage to keep Chase from winning deep.

Call that performance what you want, I suppose, but I'm still a strong proponent of bringing Ward back on a long-term deal. He's a really good CB and, no, I'm not convinced Fenton is in the same stratosphere. Fenton has played well for less than 50% of snaps. That doesn't mean I feel 100% on him being a full-time starter. That said, I could see it if I'm looking at something else I'll discuss in a minute.

If the Chiefs don't invest in Ward, I don't see how you can't invest a higher pick there. There isn't another Ward/Sneed on the roster right now that can truly take over as an outside CB sans maybe Fenton but is Fenton up to the task?

And as for the rest of the secondary, you have to take a very long and hard look at the safeties and not feel comfortable. Mathieu, he's a good player. I think he's declined this year and his Twitter business leaves much to be desired. I'd cut bait there and look for youth. That decision would be much easier, though, if it weren't for the Sorensen situation.

Ahhhhh... Dan Sorensen. Everyone's favorite guy to hate, then love, then hate again. It's time to move on.

The way I see the safety situation is that you move the NFL's normal. The league has played around with special guys like Mathieu that can play in the box and can cover in the slot. They've played with guys like Sorensen that can play in the box and be a LB hybrid. But then there is this shift to the two-deep shell, and it's HIGHLY effective when done right.

So, I foresee more of a two-deep shell with dual free-safety types. Thornhill with Marcus Williams anyone? Williams is a guy that can step down and cover like a corner when needed and then fill out as supreme center-fielder. The same goes for Jessie Bates, although Williams is more likely to be available. I think a Williams/Thornhill back end gives you a lot of flexibility to not only play the two-deep shell but also morph out of it into other looks without substitutions.

And I'll say it again, I really, really like Sneed to replace Mathieu's role in the box. He's bigger and faster and tackles with more authority. Between he and Williams, they let you take a CB off the field to go LB heavy, take Thornhill off the field for even more coverage, or just morph in and out of any variety of coverages from a nickel look without doing anything from a sub standpoint.

My issue is, if I have Sneed in this hybrid role with dual FS's over the top, then what the hell to do at CB? Surely you'd have to put Fenton on the outside and draft a CB relatively early.

Conundrum. Do you play the shell game and get a Williams, keep Sneed out at CB with Fenton and look for the next Sneed (A reason I'm kinda high on Kyler Gordon)? Do you ditch the hybrid safety gameplan Mathieu and Sorensen brought to the table and go for a more traditional look and add a more athletic LB to the mix? Do you draft a couple of CBs?

It's a tough one, but in a predominately passing league I'd err towards having the best coverage setup I can and I think a two-deep shell with a box slot guy that can function as Sneed and Mathieu does is the best of all worlds. In other words, continue to live in that nickel base but you better be damned sure your front four is strong.

All of that text to say I'd be thrilled if I could snag Marcus Williams and retain Ward.
By your own admission, Ward had good position nearly all game long-and it didn't matter.

Sneed I like and would probably pay as he can do so many things, but to ditch Mathieu hurts the team more than losing Ward will. With Sneed AND Mathieu, you can do a lot of things to confuse QB's pre-snap and post. I'd rather have both. Sorensen must be replaced We do a LOT of 3 safety looks. Versatility is why.

Fenton, Baker, Hughes and Sneed will work fine as long as the front four is very good.

Mathieu, Thornhill and a S either drafted or a vet signed will be more important in more facets of the game than the outside corners who aren't allowed to do anything but run alongside the WR's anyway.
[Reply]
dannybcaitlyn 07:06 AM 01-05-2022
Matthieu wants top safety money and is getting up there in age. If I’m going to spend that kind of money I’m going after 25 year old Derwin James. He does the same thing for the charger secondary as Mathieu does for ours. He also the only DB that I’ve ever seen that’s been able to cover Kelce also. Injuries have hampered him some but they also hampered Matthieu before he got to us. Derwin is the best safety in the league and a true difference maker when he’s out there.
[Reply]
wachashi 09:07 AM 01-05-2022
Originally Posted by Chris Meck:
I know I've said this a bunch of times, but The Bengals game just reinforced my view.

I would not spend high draft picks nor high market value cap room on corners. Whether you feel like the refs screwed us or not, the reality is that at any time, they can flag a corner if he does anything at all besides run alongside the receiver.

There are two ways to negatively affect an opposing offense's passing game: 1) relentless pass rush and 2) confuse the QB.

That's it really. That's all you're allowed these days.

So to that end, I think that smart, athletic, versatile safeties are really undervalued and outside corners are OVERvalued.

With smart, versatile safeties, you can disguise coverages pre-snap, blitz them, drop them, play zone, play man, play some kind of combo coverage and along with the killer pass rush you can cover long enough.

I would not pay Ward. Nothing against him, he's a quality player. But market value on him will not be worth what he can give you under the current rule enforcement. I would draft another 4th or 5th rounder, I'd re-sign Huges and Baker, and roll on at corner.

I'd definitely draft a S somewhere around the 3rd, and I'd probably re-sign Mathieu to something like a 3 year deal because his versatility allows you to do so much. I'd be looking for another guy or two like that. Sneed, for instance, is a guy I might well pay a 2nd contract to because he can do so many things, not just outside corner.

But I'm putting my money and my high draft resources on the front line.
I think the Chiefs' recent drafts have taken this approach with regards to CB. We've had a "need" at CB pretty much every draft since Spags got here and they've addressed the position through fairly cheap free agents rather than through high draft picks. Just look at our roster now: Ward, Fenton, Baker, Hughes - they gave up essentially nothing for them.

CB also seems to be a very difficult position to hit on in the first round, relative to others. I think the Chiefs' philosophy on the CB position under Spags is pretty apparent at this point. They don't need superstar CBs to be an effective unit if they have the right pieces in other places.
[Reply]
Chris Meck 09:22 AM 01-05-2022
Originally Posted by wachashi:
I think the Chiefs' recent drafts have taken this approach with regards to CB. We've had a "need" at CB pretty much every draft since Spags got here and they've addressed the position through fairly cheap free agents rather than through high draft picks. Just look at our roster now: Ward, Fenton, Baker, Hughes - they gave up essentially nothing for them.

CB also seems to be a very difficult position to hit on in the first round, relative to others. I think the Chiefs' philosophy on the CB position under Spags is pretty apparent at this point. They don't need superstar CBs to be an effective unit if they have the right pieces in other places.
I think there's good reason.

Outside corners don't affect that game all that much unless they're terrible.

The difference between a good corner and a great one is negligible.

Ward had excellent position all game long and an accurate QB and great WR just ate him alive. It wouldn't have mattered if he was Deion Sanders in his prime; under the current rule emphasis you can't do anything whatsoever but run alongside the WR's and hope the throw is off.

Best way to make sure the throw is off is to hit the QB quickly.

Put your serious investments on the line and in versatile secondary players that can confuse QB's. That's the best path in the modern NFL in my opinion.

I ain't paying outside corners.
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