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The Lounge>Frank Clark fucking sucks
RealSNR 02:33 PM 09-15-2019
Guy has done NOTHING in two games. Barely any pressures to speak of against trash OTs.

Yeah, I'm in bitchy gameday mode. Don't care. I'm tired of paying out the ass for defensive players who don't make plays.

At least Justin Houston could dominate against bad teams after we paid him.
[Reply]
RunKC 02:06 PM 10-14-2019
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
I don't know why you keep ****ing this 'Bradley Chubb' chicken.

Corner is the hardest commodity on the market to get right now. Instead of taking a DE (when he has Garrett), Dorsey went and snagged a CB who made the pro bowl as a rookie.

You ALWAYS ignore that. You always say he took some skinny corner without saying "who had one of the better seasons by a rookie CB in recent memory". Instead you flat out ****ing lie and say he's 'done dick'.

And I know it's intentional because I've pointed this out to you on several occasions yet you just keep acting like Ward was a scrub. He wasn't - dude was an elite CB last season and I suspect many, if not most, GMs would rather have him than Chubb.

As for the rest, you're just picking and choosing to fit your narrative. You're giving Ballard credit for any good defensive pick we make and blaming Dorsey for any bad one. Based on what, I do not know. Then again, you don't either so I guess we're even. 'K-Pass was clearly a Dorsey pick as was Peters, but you know Jones and Nelson were Ballard picks...."

Sure we do, sport. Sure we do.

Look - if Dorsey was a pile of wet garbage, we're in a LOT more trouble than I realized. Veach isn't half the GM Dorsey was.
Pass rusher is also a damned hard position to find, and they are about 30% more expensive than a corner, so FA presents a giant risk (i.e Frank Clark).

Denzel Ward had 2 career college INTís. Two. On the most talented defense in the country? And Dorsey passed on him for a stud that had 25 sacks and 54.5 TFLís playing for NC State?

Címon now. You say this all the time. Draft the best players available. We all know that. Instead Dorsey committed the cardinal sin and drafted simply for need.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cle...outputType=amp

And he even mentioned that having Ogbah helped his decision to choose Ward, but yet he gave this guy away and looks all the more awful for doing so.

Yes I do believe that Ballard had a tremendous influence on drafting our best players before he left. He gave approval for Marcus Peters (which also deserves criticism).

Can you blame anyone for thinking that Ballard was the crux that helped us net our stars? Dorsey was given tons of high picks and more money than anyone, along with a draft with 2 highly thought of QBís to choose from to start his job and he looks like a disaster.

His hand picked QB is a disaster that everyone outside of Cleveland hates. His corner picked top 5 has done nothing but get hurt all the time. His OL he choose with the first pick in the 2nd rd is a bust.

Meanwhile Ballard had the hardest start to a career for any GM ever with both a coach and elite QB bitching out on him at the last minute and he is flourishing.

Darius Leonard and Braden Smith were taken directly after Dorseyís 2nd rd picks.

Itís clear that Ballard is awesome and Dorsey/Veach are both below par.
[Reply]
DJ's left nut 02:25 PM 10-14-2019
I don't have a problem concluding that Ballard is good - seems pretty damn likely that's the case.

My problem is the piecemeal dissection of Dorsey trying to conclude he's bad. He isn't - you look at what he brought in here and you're focusing solely on defense without giving credit at all for where he's hit the mark on elsewhere. Hill, Kelce and Jones were outstanding picks and you're just gonna call them Ballard picks? Based on what? And all 3 of those guys are easily on par with Leonard or Smith (I'm not convinced Smith's great anyway).

And you want to cite college stats for Ward and then say he's done nothing but get hurt while STILL ignoring that he made the Pro Bowl last year and was among the best coverage corners in the game. Seriously - that kid is GOOD. He has more potential than Chubb, IMO. Guy can easily be one of the 5 best CBs in football for the next 6-8 years. And let's just set aside the irony of Chubb being on the IR right now when you're blasting away at Ward's injury history.

Dorsey wasn't given 'tons of high picks' precisely because he WAS good. He immediately had this team in the playoffs after taking over a 3 win friggen squad. Oh, and his 'reward' for inheriting such a shit team was to get 1.1 in probably the worst draft in 25 years. And with that pick he took the only guy in the top 10 who's been a truly good player. Then he took an aging squad and flipped it into a team with a lot of exciting young players and positive momentum (that Veach is well on his way to squandering). He also executed the single most critical deal in franchise history to get up to EXACTLY where he needed to get to grab Patrick Mahomes. We really gonna handwaive that?

Mayfield...eh, is what it is. No, I don't like Mayfield at all. I think he's a monumental assbag. But did this board (myself and I'm sure you included) not spend a decade before Mahomes saying "FFS, at least TRY to get your quarterback!! If it fails, it fails - try again..."? By that very logic would he have been better served taking Rosen? Darnold? Allen? Darnold has a very low ceiling, Allen has among the lower floors you'll ever see. If you were looking for something of a mix of upside, floor and maybe a little bit of attitude, Mayfield was really the only guy out there. I can't kill him for that pick; why should I? He adhered to a logic that just about everyone on this board has adhered to for the entire duration of said board.

Is Ballard better than Dorsey? Yeah, probably. Then again, he might just be his mirror image (Dorsey's performance on O but applied to the D). In either event, that's not really where I take exception.

I simply think trying to lump Dorsey in with Veach is ridiculous. Dorsey's track record has been light years better than Veach's unless you simply want to give credit for anything he's done well to someone else. How is that remotely fair?
[Reply]
Tribal Warfare 02:41 PM 10-14-2019
Originally Posted by TambaBerry:
so, the ligament in his elbows is it still an issue? Like we wouldn't have traded for him if he was injured right? Please god tell me thats not true
PEDs and painkillers are on the Seahawks training table
[Reply]
PAChiefsGuy 02:50 PM 10-14-2019
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
I don't have a problem concluding that Ballard is good - seems pretty damn likely that's the case.

My problem is the piecemeal dissection of Dorsey trying to conclude he's bad. He isn't - you look at what he brought in here and you're focusing solely on defense without giving credit at all for where he's hit the mark on elsewhere. Hill, Kelce and Jones were outstanding picks and you're just gonna call them Ballard picks? Based on what? And all 3 of those guys are easily on par with Leonard or Smith (I'm not convinced Smith's great anyway).

And you want to cite college stats for Ward and then say he's done nothing but get hurt while STILL ignoring that he made the Pro Bowl last year and was among the best coverage corners in the game. Seriously - that kid is GOOD. He has more potential than Chubb, IMO. Guy can easily be one of the 5 best CBs in football for the next 6-8 years. And let's just set aside the irony of Chubb being on the IR right now when you're blasting away at Ward's injury history.

Dorsey wasn't given 'tons of high picks' precisely because he WAS good. He immediately had this team in the playoffs after taking over a 3 win friggen squad. Oh, and his 'reward' for inheriting such a shit team was to get 1.1 in probably the worst draft in 25 years. And with that pick he took the only guy in the top 10 who's been a truly good player. Then he took an aging squad and flipped it into a team with a lot of exciting young players and positive momentum (that Veach is well on his way to squandering). He also executed the single most critical deal in franchise history to get up to EXACTLY where he needed to get to grab Patrick Mahomes. We really gonna handwaive that?

Mayfield...eh, is what it is. No, I don't like Mayfield at all. I think he's a monumental assbag. But did this board (myself and I'm sure you included) not spend a decade before Mahomes saying "FFS, at least TRY to get your quarterback!! If it fails, it fails - try again..."? By that very logic would he have been better served taking Rosen? Darnold? Allen? Darnold has a very low ceiling, Allen has among the lower floors you'll ever see. If you were looking for something of a mix of upside, floor and maybe a little bit of attitude, Mayfield was really the only guy out there. I can't kill him for that pick; why should I? He adhered to a logic that just about everyone on this board has adhered to for the entire duration of said board.

Is Ballard better than Dorsey? Yeah, probably. Then again, he might just be his mirror image (Dorsey's performance on O but applied to the D). In either event, that's not really where I take exception.

I simply think trying to lump Dorsey in with Veach is ridiculous. Dorsey's track record has been light years better than Veach's unless you simply want to give credit for anything he's done well to someone else. How is that remotely fair?
Great post.

For all his faults Dorsey is not as bad as Veach. Does anyone here think Dorsey have given up a 1st and a 2nd for Frank Clark and then given him $105 million contract? No way in hell Dorsey would do that.. That trade looks beyond bad right now and may have set the Chiefs D back a year or two.
[Reply]
The Franchise 03:00 PM 10-14-2019
Originally Posted by PAChiefsGuy:
Great post.

For all his faults Dorsey is not as bad as Veach. Does anyone here think Dorsey have given up a 1st and a 2nd for Frank Clark and then given him $105 million contract? No way in hell Dorsey would do that.. That trade looks beyond bad right now and may have set the Chiefs D back a year or two.
Dorsey traded away his best offensive lineman for a DE that has one sack.
[Reply]
DJ's left nut 03:01 PM 10-14-2019
Dorsey has a pretty shitty deal of his own on his ledger for a DE this off-season, though. And one that flat out floored me when it was made.

Why ANYONE bailed out the Giants on that Olivier Vernon guaranteed money is beyond me. And to give up a quality G in Zeitler to do so is pretty !@#$ing bad.

But if we're talking degrees here, the Clark deal is significantly more damaging than the Vernon deal, even if the Vernon deal had significantly less upside. If you squint you can see why Veach spun the wheel on the Clark trade - bad idea, but there's a 'damn the torpedoes' logic to it. The Zeilter/Vernon swap, OTOH, was a bizarre one that I couldn't figure out from the word go.

I don't think Dorsey is perfect by any means. He does make mistakes - but most of those mistakes have been overblown by people who felt the need to justify the Chiefs decision to move on from him. Writ large, Dorsey did an awfully good job here and put Veach in a great position to succeed (Veach assumed a FAR better situation than Dorsey did). Veach simply hasn't done anything with that momentum.

Dorsey got excoriated for his 'terrible cap management' (without acknowledging the bare cupboard he inherited or the mandate to be competitive immediately) but it was EASY to get out from under what he did. This team's had a ton a flexibility the past 2 seasons. The problem is that Veach has taken all that wiggle room and pissed it away.
[Reply]
KC Hawks 03:13 PM 10-14-2019
Veach is the youngest GM in the NFL. Our only hope is that he can grow and learn from his mistakes...doesn't look promising.
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MAHOMO 4 LIFE! 03:15 PM 10-14-2019
What’s the penalty for practicing in pads and tackling? I’m willing to chip in for the fine
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Marcellus 03:24 PM 10-14-2019
Originally Posted by Gravedigger:
Watson is intimidating to be fair, he can juke you out of your shoes if you take the wrong angle. I'm actually happy that Clark made contact out of the endzone at all, I'm more pissed by the lack of help that he had from any of our Linebackers though. You get two hats heading towards Watson, he'll make a rushed throw vs trying to take on two guys to get into the endzone.
Bingo. Plenty to bitch about regarding Clark, the Watson TD isn't one of them.

Watson beats damn near every LB one on one there not named Kuechly.
[Reply]
MAHOMO 4 LIFE! 03:26 PM 10-14-2019
Originally Posted by Marcellus:
Bingo. Plenty to bitch about regarding Clark, the Watson TD isn't one of them.

Watson beats damn near every LB one on one there not named Kuechly.
I would trade our next 10 first round draft picks for Keuchly!!
[Reply]
dlphg9 03:38 PM 10-14-2019
Originally Posted by Mecca:
I can't wait for some more Breeland Speaks.
Speaks did more than Clark
[Reply]
Marcellus 03:38 PM 10-14-2019
Originally Posted by MAHOMO 4 LIFE!:
I would trade our next 10 first round draft picks for Keuchly!!
Dude is a missle. The exact kind of LB we are missing.
[Reply]
RunKC 03:38 PM 10-14-2019
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
Dorsey has a pretty shitty deal of his own on his ledger for a DE this off-season, though. And one that flat out floored me when it was made.

Why ANYONE bailed out the Giants on that Olivier Vernon guaranteed money is beyond me. And to give up a quality G in Zeitler to do so is pretty !@#$ing bad.

But if we're talking degrees here, the Clark deal is significantly more damaging than the Vernon deal, even if the Vernon deal had significantly less upside. If you squint you can see why Veach spun the wheel on the Clark trade - bad idea, but there's a 'damn the torpedoes' logic to it. The Zeilter/Vernon swap, OTOH, was a bizarre one that I couldn't figure out from the word go.

I don't think Dorsey is perfect by any means. He does make mistakes - but most of those mistakes have been overblown by people who felt the need to justify the Chiefs decision to move on from him. Writ large, Dorsey did an awfully good job here and put Veach in a great position to succeed (Veach assumed a FAR better situation than Dorsey did). Veach simply hasn't done anything with that momentum.

Dorsey got excoriated for his 'terrible cap management' (without acknowledging the bare cupboard he inherited or the mandate to be competitive immediately) but it was EASY to get out from under what he did. This team's had a ton a flexibility the past 2 seasons. The problem is that Veach has taken all that wiggle room and pissed it away.
Dorsey paid Tamba when he was old and busted. He gave him a 3 year contract extension and Tamba made 1 tackle for that contract. That was our return :-)

I don’t think we need to discuss Eric Berry and his paralyzing contract that we will still be paying to this day. Pretty sure we owe that guy $8 million alone next season.

It’s about as bad as Frank Clark if you consider that both Tamba and Berry were only on the field (off and on) for about 10 of a projected 144 games for the life of those two contracts combined.
[Reply]
MAHOMO 4 LIFE! 03:44 PM 10-14-2019
Originally Posted by Marcellus:
Dude is a missle. The exact kind of LB we are missing.
Heís was taken one spot ahead of us. Instead we took Poe because Chiefs
[Reply]
DJ's left nut 03:54 PM 10-14-2019
Originally Posted by RunKC:
Dorsey paid Tamba when he was old and busted. He gave him a 3 year contract extension and Tamba made 1 tackle for that contract. That was our return :-)

I don’t think we need to discuss Eric Berry and his paralyzing contract that we will still be paying to this day. Pretty sure we owe that guy $8 million alone next season.

It’s about as bad as Frank Clark if you consider that both Tamba and Berry were only on the field (off and on) for about 10 of a projected 144 games for the life of those two contracts combined.
Hali was a mistake; a panic move born of Houston's injury. Ultimately the biggest problem with that one was the weird timing of it, but it's also probably its most obvious explanation. They set a few million dollars in cap space on fire by allowing those 'voidable years' to lapse just a few days prior to reaching an extension. There was no reason not to roll those in and push that cap space out a bit. It would've made little difference long-term (would've washed by year 3) but if they'd have had any intention of re-signing him, they'd have never let that happen. But the lack of progress on Houston's knee screwed them up.

The Hali deal is admittedly not great - hate seeing a panic move like that - but nothing approaching Clark. At least the Hali deal was a result of injury; the Clark deal was hubris. In fact, the Hali deal doesn't even get to Hitchens level and Hitchens is like 4th on Veach's hit list in two seasons. All told it was a 2 year, $14 million extension that they got a mediocre season out of (2016) and a lost season in 2017. I mean....is that any worse than Okafor's deal? And most seem to think that Okafor's deal is a GOOD one for Veach.

You're REALLY gonna put Berry on Dorsey? Most folks seem to think that Dorsey holding the line on Berry and refusing to capitulate to Berry's representatives ridiculous demands ended up pissing Clark off and contributed to Dorsey's firing. Absolutely not - there is no way you hold Eric Berry against John Dorsey. Dorsey desperately tried to avoid that trainwreck until Clark got himself involved and fucked everything up. That's pretty much a matter of public record at this point. No way - that was 100% Clark Hunt.
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