ChiefsPlanet Mobile
Saccopoo Memorial Draft Forum>The cap space/roster scenerio for 2022.
Direckshun 11:35 AM 12-15-2021
We now know the cap in 2022 is going to be $208m.

We also know that we have $179m in cap space taken up for 2022. I think you can upgrade that to $194m, assuming we tag Orlando Brown.

Yessir folks, we are entering the era of the big Mahomes paydays. His cap hit in 2022 is nearly $36m.

That gives us this roster:

QB: Mahomes, Buechele
RB: Edwards-Helaire
FB:

WR: Hill, Hardman
TE: Kelce, Gray

LT: Brown, Wanogho
LG: Thuney, Allegretti
C: Humphrey, Allegretti
RG: Smith
RT: Niang, Wanogho

DE: Clark, Kaindoh
DT: Jones, Wharton
DT: Saunders
DE: Danna, Herring

OLB: Gay
ILB: Hitchens
OLB: Bolton

CB: Sneed, Fenton
S: Thornhill, Anderson

K: Butker
P: Townsend
LS: Winchester

FYI: Cutting Clark saves us $19.5m, cutting Hitchens saves us $8.5m.

Hill has a cap hit of $20.6, and he's entering the last year of his contract, so you can lower that cap hit.

You could also extend Clark if you wanted, to lower that cap hit as well.

Just an FYI for those doing mocks going forward.

Anything to add?
[Reply]
The Franchise 11:46 AM 12-15-2021
You can always restructure Mahomes again.

Also restructure Thuney if you need to.
[Reply]
Direckshun 11:50 AM 12-15-2021
Thuney's contract is already an albatross. I know he's a Pro Bowler, but that's basically "very good left tackle" money we gave him.

I'd hate to make it worse starting next year.

Mahomes, sure.

By the way -- everybody was tweeting about Mahomes taking less money for the defense this year when the defense was bad.

We need to recognize what he's done for this team this year now that the defense looks outstanding.
[Reply]
DJ's left nut 04:21 PM 12-15-2021
His cap hit is fine this year - dirt cheap, in fact.

Next year's is tolerable, especially if you look at a 2 year average (which is fair in the rollover era).

If we cut him after year 3, we'd have spent $48 million in cap on him after factoring in the dead money. 3/16 million per isn't really "Very good left tackle" money. It's....Taylor Decker money? Taylor Decker is pretty much dead-ass average, no?

It's not cheap, but he's an elite player and they never are, regardless of position.

But ultimately I'm pretty strongly opposed to restructures wherever possible. They're just kicking the can and sometimes you end up spending for the sake of spending when that happens.
[Reply]
Direckshun 08:56 AM 12-16-2021
Tod Palmer of the "4th & 1" podcast said that restructuring is like getting further into bed with a player.

That really only makes sense, put that way, with two players on this team, maybe three: Mahomes, Kelce, and maybe Butker.

Everybody else is negotiable for a variety of reasons, due to the possibility of a quick drop off, lack of importance, injury concerns, motivation problems, or legal risk.
[Reply]
duncan_idaho 12:16 PM 12-16-2021
I think you can assume they will restructure a big chunk of Mahomes' roster bonus into a signing bonus and free up about $20M that way.

I think you can assume they'll shave $5M or so off of Hill's 2022 cap hit.

I think you can assume they'll restructure or extend Jones and drastically lower his 2022 cap hit, freeing up $15-20M or so.

Do all that, and you go from having about $23M to play with (part of which needs to be reserved for rookie cap) and they end up with $50-60M dollars under the cap.

That's a lot of space at first blush. You also need to fit a Mathieu extension in there if that happens, but you still would have plenty of room to work with.
[Reply]
DJ's left nut 03:57 PM 12-16-2021
Originally Posted by duncan_idaho:
I think you can assume they will restructure a big chunk of Mahomes' roster bonus into a signing bonus and free up about $20M that way.

I think you can assume they'll shave $5M or so off of Hill's 2022 cap hit.

I think you can assume they'll restructure or extend Jones and drastically lower his 2022 cap hit, freeing up $15-20M or so.

Do all that, and you go from having about $23M to play with (part of which needs to be reserved for rookie cap) and they end up with $50-60M dollars under the cap.

That's a lot of space at first blush. You also need to fit a Mathieu extension in there if that happens, but you still would have plenty of room to work with.
I just don't know how many times you can go back to the Mahomes Restructure well, and why NOW would be the time to do so?

I mean I guess a restructure for someone you intend to keep NEVER hurts. At worst you forward pay it with rollover space. So sure, go ahead and do it. The problem is that anytime we do, Veach becomes a sailor with combat pay in his pocket and feels compelled to go up to the cap. Suddenly you haven't forward paid anything - you've paid on credit. And that balloon payment's gonna be due sooner than you think.

At some point you just have to be the adult in the damn room. And really, that point should come before you shell out another $9million for a brokedick WR. Or $6 million to a redundant and declining LBer. It damn sure oughta come before you give a long-term extension to an undersized 30 year old safety who's losing his speed.

We cannot - we SHOULD not - keep everyone. Roster refreshes are necessary. Veach's job is never over.

We can't just keep massaging the cap and then spending up to it.
[Reply]
duncan_idaho 04:25 PM 12-16-2021
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
I just don't know how many times you can go back to the Mahomes Restructure well, and why NOW would be the time to do so?

I mean I guess a restructure for someone you intend to keep NEVER hurts. At worst you forward pay it with rollover space. So sure, go ahead and do it. The problem is that anytime we do, Veach becomes a sailor with combat pay in his pocket and feels compelled to go up to the cap. Suddenly you haven't forward paid anything - you've paid on credit. And that balloon payment's gonna be due sooner than you think.

At some point you just have to be the adult in the damn room. And really, that point should come before you shell out another $9million for a brokedick WR. Or $6 million to a redundant and declining LBer. It damn sure oughta come before you give a long-term extension to an undersized 30 year old safety who's losing his speed.

We cannot - we SHOULD not - keep everyone. Roster refreshes are necessary. Veach's job is never over.

We can't just keep massaging the cap and then spending up to it.
I kind of think it's designed to just keep restructuring his roster bonuses and pushing the money forward until his huge roster bonus in 2027 or until the gambling money affects the cap.

He's only carrying 16.7M in prorated bonuses through 2022,2023, and 2024.

You would make his 23-26+ cap hits escalate by $5M each by restructuring as I suggested. My guess would be that they plan to pay the piper and not escalate when the balloon from gambling money hits the cap.
[Reply]
Wilson8 05:12 PM 01-01-2022
Quarterbacks
6 Shane Buechele, Age 23. 6-0, 208, (2022 $825K, 2023 ERFA)
4 Chad Henne, Age 36, 6-3, 215, (2022 Free Agent)
15 Patrick Mahomes, Age 26, 6-3, 227, (2022 $35.8M, 2023 46.8M2031 $52.5)

Running backs
45 Michael Burton FB, Age 29, 6-0, 243, (2022 Free Agent)
25 Clyde Edwards-Helaire, Age 22, 5-8, 205, (2022 $2.9M, 2023 $3.4M)
40 Derrick Gore, Age 27, 5-10, 207, (2022 ERFA)
31 Darrel Williams, Age 26, 5-11, 219, (2022 Free Agent)
34 Elijah McGuire RB PS, Age 27, 5-10, 214
1 Jerick McKinnon RB (IR-DFR), Age 29, 5-9. 201, (2022 Free Agent)

Wide receivers
19 Josh Gordon, Age 30, 6-3, 238, (2022 Free Agent)
17 Mecole Hardman, Age 23, 5-10, 180, (2022 $1.6M)
10 Tyreek Hill, Age 27, 5-10, 185, (2022 $20.6M) Do Extension
85 Marcus Kemp Age 26, 6-4, 208, (2022 Free Agent)
13 Byron Pringle, Age 28,6-1, 201, (2022 Free Agent)
11 Demarcus Robinson, Age 27, 6-1, 202, (2022 Free Agent)
12 Gehrig Dieter WR PS, Age 28, 6-3, 208
82 Daurice Fountain WR PS, Age 26, 6-1, 212
14 Cornell Powell WR PS, Age 24, 6-0, 210
84 Chad Williams WR, (IR), Age 27, 6-2, 204

Tight ends
81 Blake Bell, Age 30, 6-6, 260, (2022 Free Agent)
83 Noah Gray, Age 22, 6-4, 243, (2022 $903K, 2023 $1.018M, 2024 $1.133M)
87 Travis Kelce, Age 32, 6-5, 256, (2022 $8.9M, 2023 $14.65M, 2024 $16.4M, 2025 $18.65M)
48 Nakia Griffin-Stewart TE PS, Age 25, 6-5, 260
80 Mark Vital TE PS, Age 25, 6-5, 250
88 Jody Fortson TE (IR), Age 26, 6-6, 240 (2022 ERFA)

Offensive linemen
73 Nick Allegretti G, Age 25, 6-4, 315, (2022 $1.003M)
66 Austin Blythe C, Age 29, 6-2, 280, (2022 Free Agent)
57 Orlando Brown Jr. T, Age 25, 6-8, 363, (2022 Free Agent)
52 Creed Humphrey C, Age 22, 6-5, 309, (2022 $1.264M. 2023 $1.517M, 2024 $1.770M)
69 Kyle Long G, Age 33, 6-6, 332, (2022 Free Agent)
67 Lucas Niang T, Age 23, 6-6, 339, (2022 $1.071M. 2023 $1.207M, 2024 $1.321M)
65 Trey Smith G, Age 22, 6-6, 329, (2022 $857K. 2023 $972K, 2024 $1.087M)
70 Prince Tega Wanogho T, Age 24, 6-5, 303, (2022 $825K, 2023 ERFA)
62 Joe Thuney G, Age 29, 6-5, 304, (2022 $17.8M. 2023 $18.9M, 2024 $19.4M, 2025 $19.4M)
77 Andrew Wylie G, Age 27, 6-6, 310, (2022 Free Agent)
64 Darryl Williams C PS, Age 24, 6-2, 304
75 Mike Remmers T (IR), Age 32, 6-5, 301, (2022 Free Agent)

Defensive linemen
55 Frank Clark DE, Age 28, 6-3, 261, (2022 $26.3M, 2023 $27.8M)
51 Mike Danna DE, Age 24, 6-2, 255, (2022 $961K, 2023 $1M)
95 Chris Jones DT, Age 27, 6-6, 298, (2022 $29.4M, 2023 $27M)
91 Derrick Nnadi DT, Age 25, 6-1, 317, (2022 Free Agent)
97 Alex Okafor DE, Age 30, 6-4, 261, (2022 Free Agent)
90 Jarran Reed DT, Age 29, 6-3, 313, (2022 Free Agent)
98 Tershawn Wharton DT, Age 23, 6-4, 278, (2022, $896,668, 2023 RFA)
24 Melvin Ingram DE, Age 32, 6-2, 247, (2022 Free Agent)
79 Cortez Broughton DT PS, Age 25, 6-2, 293
60 Austin Edwards DE PS, Age 24, 6-5, 273
-- Malik Herring DE (NF-Inj.) Age 24, 6-3, 280 (2022 $833K, 2023 $949K, 2024 RFA)
59 Joshua Kaindoh DE (IR-DFR), Age 23, 6-7, 262, (2022 $949K. 2023 $1.064M, 2024 $1.179M)
99 Khalen Saunders DT (IR), Age 25, 6-0, 324, (2022 $1.218M)

Linebackers
54 Nick Bolton MLB, Age 21, 6-0, 237), (2022 $1.3M. 2023 $1.591M, 2024 $1.856M)
50 Willie Gay OLB, Age 23, 6-1, 235, (2022 $1.4M, 2023 $1.677M)
53 Anthony Hitchens OLB, Age 29, 6-0, 231, (2022 $12.7M)
56 Ben Niemann MLB, Age 26, 6-2, 233, (2022 Free Agent)
44 Dorian O'Daniel OLB, Age 27, 6-1, 217, (2022 Free Agent)
92 Shilique Calhoun LB PS, Age 29, 6-5, 260
47 Darius Harris OLB PS, Age 25, 6-2, 240
43 Elijah Sullivan OLB PS, Age 24, 6-0, 215

Defensive backs
39 Zayne Anderson FS, Age 24, 6-2, 205, (2022 $825K 2023 ERFA)
30 Deandre Baker CB, Age 24, 5-11, 186, (2022 ERFA)
27 Rashad Fenton CB, Age 24, 5-11, 193, (2022 $1.013M)
21 Mike Hughes CB, Age 24, 5-10, 186, (2022 Free Agent)
32 Tyrann Mathieu SS, Age 29, 5-9, 190, (2022 Free Agent)
38 L'Jarius Sneed CB, Age 24, 6-1, 189, (2022 $1.053M. 2023 $1.168M )
49 Daniel Sorensen FS, Age 31, 6-2, 200, (2022 Free Agent)
22 Juan Thornhill FS, Age 26, 6-0, 203, (2022 $1.468M)
35 Charvarius Ward CB, Age 25, 6-1, 195, (2022 Free Agent)
23 Armani Watts SS, Age 25, 5-11, 190, (2022 Free Agent)
2 Dicaprio Bootle CB PS, Age 24, 5-10, 182
20 Josh Jackson CB PS, Age 26, 6-0, 196
24 Devon Key SS PS, Age 24, 6-0, 204
26 Chris Lammons CB (IR), Age 25, 5-10, 182 , (2022 RFA)

Special teams
7 Harrison Butker K, Age 26, 6-4, 196, (2022 $4.2M. 2023 $4.4M, 2024 $3.8M)
5 Tommy Townsend P, Age 25, 6-1, 194, (2022 $897, 2023 RFA)
41 James Winchester LS, Age 32, 6-3, 242 signed extension through 2023.
[Reply]
RunKC 01:13 PM 01-05-2022
Extend Tyreek and lower his cap hit to $7-8 million in his first year which would save about $12-13 million.

That will help
[Reply]
DJ's left nut 04:17 PM 01-06-2022
Originally Posted by RunKC:
Extend Tyreek and lower his cap hit to $7-8 million in his first year which would save about $12-13 million.

That will help
I suspect he'll want at least a 4 year deal and with the upcoming rise in the cap, likely about a $24 million/yr AAV (or greater).

Cooper was the first $100 million receiver but he was 25 when he signed. Tyreek's extension will kick in at 29 so he may have to take a little less term. Then again, he may decide that $100 million is still where he wants to be since he's a better WR than Cooper. So if it's 4 years, $102 million, he'll have the largest WR contract in history (and set the market for Adams in all likelihood) while also having one of the higher AAVs.

Using that as a baseline, he'll likely want a signing bonus in the $20 million range. So over a 4 year deal, you're talking about $5 million/season in signing bonus pro-rated. Okay, so give him your proposed $8 million cap hit in year 1 and you're talking about a $3 million base salary. All told he's now seen $23 million of that $102 million.

So you're going to have to cram the remaining $79 million into the next 3 years. So that's going to require base salaries of say, $21, $26 and $32 million. You probably cut him after year 3.

I guess he could play ball and agree to a 5 year deal w/ 4 years of real money and that makes all that a little easier, but he knows he left money on the table w/ his last deal.

Just remember that Mahomes starts to get real expensive and sooner or later we'll have to start actually paying the guy. This idea of constantly kicking the can on big name players is REALLY going to make that 1-2 year 'cap hell' period a reality.

And to be fair, it's absolutely a viable way to do it. Many teams have. They push hard for 4-5 years, allow all those liabilities to pile up, then eat shit for a season while they cut salary and absorb dead money. You can make it ALL disappear if you're willing to go down to the studs for a season. And maybe that's the idea.

Maybe Veach and Reid know that in 3 years, no amount of wishing or dreaming will make Hill or Kelce in their prime anymore and at that point a hard re-set is going to be necessary. Brady had 3 distinct 'eras' in NE and so will Mahomes. So perhaps while you have the HOF skill position players and a couple of damn nice pieces on defense, you ride it till it bucks ya.
[Reply]
Nightfyre 07:25 PM 01-08-2022
I hate to say this - but Tyreek's body is unlikely to hold up for a full four year extension. I think we are already seeing the strain his twitch muscles are putting on his body. Any significant injury that reduces his ability to stay on top of his routine, and I suspect that he will be unable to regain the raw explosiveness that makes him so special.

I love Tyreek, and he still has the explosiveness and speed to make an impact today, but I wonder if we don't look back in four or five years and identify this as the point where not extending him further would have made the most sense.

edit: For the record, I hope I am completely wrong and Tyreek continues to play like this until he's like 45.
[Reply]
Chris Meck 01-09-2022, 10:40 AM
This message has been deleted by Chris Meck.
bevischief 12:06 AM 01-12-2022
Sooner or later you have to start the rebuild...
[Reply]
Chris Meck 07:15 AM 01-12-2022
It IS possible, if unlikely, that you can rebuild on the fly but it requires some home runs in the draft.

While NE had 3 different eras with Brady, they never really had tank years, and we don't have to either.

Mahomes doesn't want to have tank years, and would likely do whatever we need him to in order to make sure that doesn't happen.

Reloading at WR will be key. That needs to start this offseason.
[Reply]
Up