Chiefs have a competitive WR room, I'm curious what you guys think...
Are we done, or will we add a vet FA?
What's the WR depth chart look like this year?
What roles will these guys play?
What do you expect next year's WR depth chart to look like? [Reply]
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
Yeah, I just can't see them moving on from Hardman.
Like I said, the WR room is presently 4 guys then wild-cards and/or a bag of dicks, depending on how generous you're feeling.
You move Hardman out of here and you're going to struggle to run 11 personnel as often as you'd if for no other reason than stamina.
I think people forget that one of the most dangerous things Hill brought to the table was that he simply never got tired. He could go out there and run 90% of the snaps at full tilt. And he could run all over the formation. Or run a deep route then another deep route then ANOTHER deep route.
Mere mortals can't do that. They will absolutely need Hardman here so they can run a viable 4 man rotation for their 3 'starters' in 11 personnel groups.
No disagreements on that.
If they don’t think they will sign him to a new deal, then his value will never be higher and I think I’d trust Mahomes to make hay with Skyy, MVS, Juju and Ross…while I think DE is a big problem and it could prove to be a fatal flaw of ours. Something that prevents us from beating the other contenders in the AFC and maybe even effect games in our own division by giving Russ, Mascara and Herbert too much time in the pocket.
I think Hardman has some value we could use to get a net gain. [Reply]
Originally Posted by BossChief:
The only way I could see them moving Hardman is in a trade for a younger starting quality DE. I think Mecole is an ascending player, but this is most likely his last year here and if we can get value from him, I’d do it. Maybe Hardman and a pick for Rashaan Gary, or Josh Allen.
I’d give it a 30% chance of happening. Max. But it’s fun to think about.
Hardman is more valuable to us THIS year than trading him for a DE because Hardman is valuable to this team as the most experienced in this offense and this proposal isn't even in the thought of Bloomsburg Vineyards. Get it out of your head BossChief it's not happening and shouldn't happen. Who would replace him? Sure just start Skyy I'm sure he is capable of it I know he is going be a stellar WR but then we just lost valuable depth at the possession we run a lot of deep routes and we cannot afford to lose a WR for a DT/DE. This is Hardmans shining moment if he can't be anything by the trade deadline then I'd consider trading him but he gives us a chance to help win us a GOD DAMN SUPER BOWL, because he is a threat any time he gets the ball to go the distance. Do you understand that? We may have a rotation to get Skyy and keep guys fresh so that fourth quarter we are still going full throttle with deep routes and that make DBs get tired keeping up. This maybe Hardmans contract year but Byron Vestkeely is probably wanting to evaluate his progression to decide if he wants to bring him back or not. It's 50/50 on if he comes back next year. I can see him leaving and finding a team that appreciates him.
This is your pipe dream, and won't happen. Why do you hate on Hardman? He may have been drafted too high but all he has done is do what the coaches asked of him and has improved every year. So this year I think he is going break 1000 yards because he will get more targets I'm sorry that is going hurt your feelings a player you don't like has success because we need him to have success. We need his speed and knowledge of the plays so he can help the other WRs with the playbook. You want a complete new WR line up without any experience in Andy Reid offense yeah that's smart. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Couch-Potato:
I agree that Mecole could be moved. His numbers are pedestrian, other football players are fully capable of learning our playbook, and if we can sell a team on his speed then kudos to them for taking a flier because we have zero intention of signing him after this year.
MVS is the exact same player as Mecole, but he's 6'4 and has more individual success in the league. Moving on from Mecole would continue our trend of getting bigger and more physical on both sides of the ball.
For Robert Quinn? Awesome, let's do it! I'm not sure how feasible that is, but I'd be happier with that trade and then adding one of the big-name FA WRs that bring more upside instead of rolling with what we have.
Dude. You have no idea what you're talking about.
MVS is the same player as Mecole? They have no attributes in common at all except for speed. That's it. Nothing else in common whatsoever.
Originally Posted by Chris Meck:
Dude. You have no idea what you're talking about.
MVS is the same player as Mecole? They have no attributes in common at all except for speed. That's it. Nothing else in common whatsoever.
Just stop.
They're both 3rd option speed guys that specialize in running deep routes to stretch the defense. Stat lines over the years are nearly identical. No? [Reply]
Originally Posted by Couch-Potato:
They're both 3rd option speed guys that specialize in running deep routes to stretch the defense. Stat lines over the years are nearly identical. No?
They’re both speed guys but are still different players. Valses-Scantling isn’t as quick or shifty as Hardman. They’re not going to use him on all the horizontal stuff, the end arounds, the shallow crosses, etc. that Hardman does (that Hill used to do).
Valses-Scantling is going to be an intermediate and vertical route runner. Hardman is going to be more of a short route runner. [Reply]
Originally Posted by duncan_idaho:
They’re both speed guys but are still different players. Valses-Scantling isn’t as quick or shifty as Hardman. They’re not going to use him on all the horizontal stuff, the end arounds, the shallow crosses, etc. that Hardman does (that Hill used to do).
Valses-Scantling is going to be an intermediate and vertical route runner. Hardman is going to be more of a short route runner.
Ok, that's a fair assessment and truth be told I don't really have anything against Hardman, I just haven't seen much out of him. I also wonder if Moore might end up being better at "all the horizontal stuff, the end arounds, the shallow crosses, etc. that Hardman does (that Hill used to do)" making Hardman expendable before next season. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Couch-Potato:
They're both 3rd option speed guys that specialize in running deep routes to stretch the defense. Stat lines over the years are nearly identical. No?
They're not similar players at all.
Hardman has more twitch and immediate burst than MVS, who's more of a build up guy. MVS is physical at the catch point but for a guy with his speed isn't a very good YAC guy.
Those underneath routes and bubble screens aren't going to be nearly as effective with MVS as they are with Hardman.
And for all the 'well he needs gimmicks to get yards' stuff - who gives a shit? Between the 20s, yards are yards. And those 'gimmicks' present something else opposing DCs have to think about and prepare for. Moreover, Hardman is a guy who's extremely dangerous on drag routes and even seam routes when give the opportunity.
Duncan said it well - they're both deep threats, but they're complementary deep threats. They don't get there in the same way. Being a 'deep threat' WR isn't just about being a guy that can run a 9 route; that's just way too basic.
And again, Hardman's value is as much about depth as anything. This team doesn't have the bodies it needs to run a full playbook without Hardman. Any drive that isn't over in 5 snaps will require you to basically scrap your 11 personnel by the time you get to the other half of the field because you don't have the WR rotation you need to keep sending them.
I think folks REALLY underestimate the physical toll that simply running routes takes on guys who aren't Tyreek Hill. It's goddamn exhausting. And if it isn't, then you're running at 85-90% and are less effective for it.
If you want to be able to have 3 guys you can send out there at top speed snap after snap after snap, you've gotta have 4 guys you can rotate. If you don't, you're going to struggle. [Reply]
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
They're not similar players at all.
Hardman has more twitch and immediate burst than MVS, who's more of a build up guy. MVS is physical at the catch point but for a guy with his speed isn't a very good YAC guy.
Those underneath routes and bubble screens aren't going to be nearly as effective with MVS as they are with Hardman.
And for all the 'well he needs gimmicks to get yards' stuff - who gives a shit? Between the 20s, yards are yards. And those 'gimmicks' present something else opposing DCs have to think about and prepare for. Moreover, Hardman is a guy who's extremely dangerous on drag routes and even seam routes when give the opportunity.
Duncan said it well - they're both deep threats, but they're complementary deep threats. They don't get there in the same way. Being a 'deep threat' WR isn't just about being a guy that can run a 9 route; that's just way too basic.
And again, Hardman's value is as much about depth as anything. This team doesn't have the bodies it needs to run a full playbook without Hardman. Any drive that isn't over in 5 snaps will require you to basically scrap your 11 personnel by the time you get to the other half of the field because you don't have the WR rotation you need to keep sending them.
I think folks REALLY underestimate the physical toll that simply running routes takes on guys who aren't Tyreek Hill. It's goddamn exhausting. And if it isn't, then you're running at 85-90% and are less effective for it.
If you want to be able to have 3 guys you can send out there at top speed snap after snap after snap, you've gotta have 4 guys you can rotate. If you don't, you're going to struggle.
^ which is why Andy Reid always wants his WR to be versatile enough to run routes from anywhere. Because he uses them interchangeably and has them run the same route concepts from inside or outside, depending on the matchup and who he is trying to exploit.
Which is why rookie WR often take longer to acclimate. [Reply]
He made an interesting point when asked about the Tyreek trade. He said they had problems even before that when Sammy was gone bc he helped Tyreek and Kelce simply due to his presence, especially when he was “on”.
It’s pretty clear that our depth at WR was absolute dog shit. Demarcus Robinson scared nobody. He rarely beat 1v1 coverage. Pringle was solid but wasn’t a true field stretcher.
I think Juju can do a lot of the things Sammy did for us. He’s got that bigger athletic body to force missed tackles and still be effective. MVS is not a word beater but he does present a few threat that’s legitimate and that is always on defenders minds when a QB like Patrick is their opponent.
I hope Ross and Skyy take off so we don’t have to pay Juju or Hardman bc I really don’t want to spend about $20 million per on either of those guys. I’d much rather just draft another WR early next year [Reply]
Originally Posted by RunKC:
Listening to Veach on Florio’s pod…
He made an interesting point when asked about the Tyreek trade. He said they had problems even before that when Sammy was gone bc he helped Tyreek and Kelce simply due to his presence, especially when he was “on”.
It’s pretty clear that our depth at WR was absolute dog shit. Demarcus Robinson scared nobody. He rarely beat 1v1 coverage. Pringle was solid but wasn’t a true field stretcher.
I think Juju can do a lot of the things Sammy did for us. He’s got that bigger athletic body to force missed tackles and still be effective. MVS is not a word beater but he does present a few threat that’s legitimate and that is always on defenders minds when a QB like Patrick is their opponent.
I hope Ross and Skyy take off so we don’t have to pay Juju or Hardman bc I really don’t want to spend about $20 million per on either of those guys. I’d much rather just draft another WR early next year
We won't.
Veach has laid his cards out pretty strongly here. This is going to be the gameplan for the foreseeable future at WR. Young talent and undervalued vets. Ideally ascending ones. If you can get them to sign for 2-3 years at a reasonable price point that allows you to lock in some possible upside, fine. But if they're wanting a 1 year deal so they can chase 20 million, you're not bringing 'em back.
I just don't see them making high dollar investments at WR for the foreseeable future. If it was something they were interested in, they'd have found a way to get it done with Tyreek. [Reply]
Veach has laid his cards out pretty strongly here. This is going to be the gameplan for the foreseeable future at WR. Young talent and undervalued vets. Ideally ascending ones. If you can get them to sign for 2-3 years at a reasonable price point that allows you to lock in some possible upside, fine. But if they're wanting a 1 year deal so they can chase 20 million, you're not bringing 'em back.
I just don't see them making high dollar investments at WR for the foreseeable future. If it was something they were interested in, they'd have found a way to get it done with Tyreek.
Assuming Tyreek wasn't set on his big contract being state tax free and in the city he was building a house. Comparing WRs to Tyreek is just as nonsensical as comparing contracts. Don't think Vetch played any cards.. right compensation met right move. QB type of haul.. Let. Tyreek go get his, cash [Reply]
Veach has laid his cards out pretty strongly here. This is going to be the gameplan for the foreseeable future at WR. Young talent and undervalued vets. Ideally ascending ones. If you can get them to sign for 2-3 years at a reasonable price point that allows you to lock in some possible upside, fine. But if they're wanting a 1 year deal so they can chase 20 million, you're not bringing 'em back.
I just don't see them making high dollar investments at WR for the foreseeable future. If it was something they were interested in, they'd have found a way to get it done with Tyreek.
To be fair, they did have a deal done with Tyreek until Jacksonville did stupid things.
That being said, I agree. Tyreek is a special dude and I think it would take a special dude for them to pay big for a receiver. [Reply]
I think Hardman is probably going to have a breakout type year. He's certainly going to get plenty of opportunities to have one as the only WR that knows most/all of the playbook. And Andy is going to give him plenty of chances to prove himself, if I'm not mistaken.
Pivot:
Skyy Moore is going to be a starter before week 10. He might prove to be the best Chief from this class a decade from now. He's the WR KC will probably build the rest of the room around going forward. [Reply]