Originally Posted by Detoxing:
Not really a good excuse when the Chiefs were willing to pay $24M+ to Tyreek.
It's not a matter of money, it's a matter of finding the proper talent.
I still think Veach is willing to pay for a premiere WR, but in a perfect world he'd be home grown and won't have to pay him for another 4-5 years.
I don't believe that throwing B/C tier players at the position is a long term strategy, more just a short term solution for this season.
Someone in the draft thread mentioned trading for Hopkins. I think that's an interesting proposition.
We weren't willing to pay $24m to Tyreek or else he would still be here. He makes $23.5m right now with the dolphins. It's the fake balloon year he won't see that brings his average to $30m. [Reply]
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
Eh - I don't really care about 'physical presence' much anymore. At least not while we have Kelce, who's always going to be Mahomes jam guy.
Give me 4 guys who are 5'10''-6'1'' who can run 4.4s and make speed cuts without losing their momentum and I'm gonna be happy.
Crisp, quick route runners with plus speed are what I'm after. Brandon Aiyuk is about as much of an explosion for size trade as I'd be willing to make. If I'm looking at a bigger guy, it's still more of a late round/UDFA flyer like Marquez Callaway who has plus body control to make contested catches rather than just someone who will body guys off.
Physicality is for teams that can't scheme guys into space or don't have a QB who will go through his progressions adequately. We don't have to worry about that. Our biggest issues with size don't surface until the red zone and that's when Kelce and the RBs come into play. I mean it's not like JuJu's 3 TDs have made him some red zone monster or anything; dude has 1 red zone score this year.
In our offense, size really doesn't matter. Unless you're talking about the hog that Kelce has to lug around out there...
Fully agree with this. We need quickness much more than size. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Megatron96:
Currently, Kadarius is the only WR we have that consistently attacks the ball. And it is frustrating to watch a guy with MVS's stature consistently waiting for balls to hit him in the hands and never going up after it, often allowing much smaller DBs to defense those passes. I've said in the past that KC could use a Michael Irvin type of WR that wasn't the biggest or the fastest wide out, but would battle for every ball thrown at him. We'd never stall out on a critical drive. hell, maybe we'd never lose.
Okay, but c'mon now.
Michael Irvin is a HoF player.
And a "Michael Irvin type of WR" that ISN'T a Hall of Famer is....JuJu Smith Schuster.
Again - you're just arguing in favor of better receivers at that point - not a specific type that unlocks this offense. And when you start to equalize the talent levels across the respective types, a physical WR simply does less for us than a fast one does, IMO.
Comparing Michael Irvin to MVS isn't exactly a fair comparison here. But comparing JJSS to Tyler Locket might be. And if you're gonna play these games, that's really the only fair way to play them. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Detoxing:
Shit, not even the Chiefs are paying JJSS like a #2 as far as relative contracts are concerned. Dude is making Byron Pringle money.
Which just makes all those, "JJSS is gonna price himself out of KC" takes just hilariously cringe to me.
Yeah, nothing I have seen so far implies that he is going to break the bank in order to stay here. [Reply]
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
I mean...we have thrown for more yards than any team in football - SOMEBODY is catching the ball on the other end...
What you're demonstrating here is exactly why I DON'T care about size much for this offense. We don't have a lot of plays where guys are fighting to take balls away because that's simply not how this offense works.
It's not designed to work that way. It doesn't HAVE to work that way. Those are higher risk, lower reward plays that lesser offenses have to rely on.
And there's some 'familiarity breeds contempt' things here. Oh sure, we get annoyed as hell watching Mike Williams push off again and again and again and get away with it. But at 3 years/$60 million, he's getting the same kind of separation that MVS is getting out there. He's physical because he HAS to be.
I don't need those guys. And when you start to get to "well I want someone who's built like Mike Evans with the physicality of Gronk and the speed of Tyreek Hill!" well no shit, congrats - we ALL want peak Calvin Johnson.
But barring that, if I'm picking 'average representative models' - physicality just ain't high on my list at all.
I’m not asking for a juju who doesn’t have speed. Plenty of WRs who have good speed, big enough but go after the ball. Even smaller guys like tyreek fought like hell to get the ball in the air. But there are plenty of average sized WR who are good at playing the ball. That’s a hell of an improvement from WRs who by and large sit back and let DBs swoop in front of them instead of making simple in air adjustments. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Hoover:
Guys like Chark and Landry have been available in the past and the Chiefs took a pass.
I think it clear, Chiefs are going to sign JJSS to a 2-3 year deal. See what they have in Moore and Tooney, and look to draft a WR1. No need to make this anymore complicated than that.
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
Okay, but c'mon now.
Michael Irvin is a HoF player.
And a "Michael Irvin type of WR" that ISN'T a Hall of Famer is....JuJu Smith Schuster.
Again - you're just arguing in favor of better receivers at that point - not a specific type that unlocks this offense. And when you start to equalize the talent levels across the respective types, a physical WR simply does less for us than a fast one does, IMO.
Comparing Michael Irvin to MVS isn't exactly a fair comparison here. But comparing JJSS to Tyler Locket might be. And if you're gonna play these games, that's really the only fair way to play them.
Okay, hang on, I'm not saying a Michael Irvin type player, as in a guy that has every attribute that Irvin had. Obviously, that's asking for a lot.
I'm saying a guy that is at least 6'1" maybe 200lbs, that battles for the ball, no matter where it's thrown. I just used Irvin as an example of that type of receiver; wasn't trying to say we need to find the next Michael Irvin.
Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501:
I’m not asking for a juju who doesn’t have speed. Plenty of WRs who have good speed, big enough but go after the ball. Even smaller guys like tyreek fought like hell to get the ball in the air. But there are plenty of average sized WR who are good at playing the ball. That’s a hell of an improvement from WRs who by and large sit back and let DBs swoop in front of them instead of making simple in air adjustments.
Ours don't do that.
At least not with any more regularity than anyone else's do.
We don't throw as many 50/50 balls as most teams so we don't have WR's that have to fight for them.
This is one of those times that perception simply doesn't match reality, IMO. We don't have some WR room full of pussies and lummoxes who cannot or will not go after a football.
Patrick Mahomes has a completion percentage of 67% this year. He has an expected completion% of 67.3%. That's...one more completion over the course of 620ish attempts.
Patrick's weapons have been fine this year. [Reply]
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
Okay, but c'mon now.
Michael Irvin is a HoF player.
And a "Michael Irvin type of WR" that ISN'T a Hall of Famer is....JuJu Smith Schuster.
Again - you're just arguing in favor of better receivers at that point - not a specific type that unlocks this offense. And when you start to equalize the talent levels across the respective types, a physical WR simply does less for us than a fast one does, IMO.
Comparing Michael Irvin to MVS isn't exactly a fair comparison here. But comparing JJSS to Tyler Locket might be. And if you're gonna play these games, that's really the only fair way to play them.
I’d be fine with what seems to be your preference like a waddle or a devontae smith. Those guys are smaller but they have tremendous ball skills. But I don’t think it’s harmful either to have size guys who are fast even if not elite speed. Dj moore as an example of a guy whose expensive but isn’t nearly on a chase or Jefferson level. [Reply]
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
Ours don't do that.
At least not with any more regularity than anyone else's do.
We don't throw as many 50/50 balls as most teams so we don't have WR's that have to fight for them.
This is one of those times that perception simply doesn't match reality, IMO. We don't have some WR room full of pussies and lummoxes who cannot or will not go after a football.
Patrick Mahomes has a completion percentage of 67% this year. He has an expected completion% of 67.3%. That's...one more completion over the course of 620ish attempts.
Patrick's weapons have been fine this year.
Only 52% when throwing at MVS though. I'm fine with Juju and the other pass catching options we tend to use but man MVS just isn't good for the most part. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Megatron96:
Okay, hang on, I'm not saying a Michael Irvin type player, as in a guy that has every attribute that Irvin had. Obviously, that's asking for a lot.
I'm saying a guy that is at least 6'1" maybe 200lbs, that battles for the ball, no matter where it's thrown. I just used Irvin as an example of that type of receiver; wasn't trying to say we need to find the next Michael Irvin.
Though that would be pretty nice.
JuJu is 6'1'', 215 lbs.
How again is he not a poverty Irvin? He's EXACTLY the kind of guy you're asking for here. Because when you take that guy and make him an annual 100 catch monster, he's actually Larry Fitzgerald.
The person your describing is JJSS and you don't seem to recognize it. [Reply]
Originally Posted by -King-:
Only 52% when throwing at MVS though. I'm fine with Juju and the other pass catching options we tend to use but man MVS just isn't good for the most part.
But MVS has an average depth of target of about 15 yards/throw.
For perspective, JJSS is less than half that at 7 yards/throw. So throw MVS 100 balls and have him catch 55 of them 15 yards downfield and you're gonna get more total yards than JJSS catching his balls 7 yards downfield 100% of the time.
Yes, there are YAC considerations that can tighten that up, but the point remains that the degree of difficulty on downfield throws/catches is exponentially higher.
If you look at guys with ADOTs over 14 Yards, there are precious few with catch rates over 60%.
DeVante Parker (fairly small sample size)
Jahan Dotson
Chris Olave
George Pickens (oof)
Mike Evans
That's it. That's the list.
No, MVS doesn't have a stellar catch% at 55.7% but he's right there with other high volume deep threats like Gabriel Davis (54.2).
An interesting name on that list, though - DJ Chark. 57.4% with an average depth of target of 16.7 yards. That's some pretty damn efficient production right there though he's done it over a smaller sample size due to injury.
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
JuJu is 6'1'', 215 lbs.
How again is he not a poverty Irvin? He's EXACTLY the kind of guy you're asking for here. Because when you take that guy and make him an annual 100 catch monster, he's actually Larry Fitzgerald.
The person your describing is JJSS and you don't seem to recognize it.
Eh, maybe. I haven't been impressed with JuJu's ability to battle for 50/50 balls or to go after off-target passes, but I could be wrong. But i have said that JJSS is a lot better than I thought he'd be this season. But he's also disappeared in several games, and that's been frustrating, for me. Point being, I'd like to see more dynamic play from JJSS, or from his replacement if it happens that way. otherwise, I'm afraid that Juju will kind of disappear in the playoffs, and that will be a big problem for the offense, imo.
MVS has been almost exactly what I thought he'd be. But that's a different conversation. [Reply]
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
Ours don't do that.
At least not with any more regularity than anyone else's do.
We don't throw as many 50/50 balls as most teams so we don't have WR's that have to fight for them.
This is one of those times that perception simply doesn't match reality, IMO. We don't have some WR room full of pussies and lummoxes who cannot or will not go after a football.
Patrick Mahomes has a completion percentage of 67% this year. He has an expected completion% of 67.3%. That's...one more completion over the course of 620ish attempts.
Patrick's weapons have been fine this year.
I’m not talking just about 50/50 balls. It’s also adjusting to the ball in the air and I know you can’t possibly be defending Mvs as a weapon. I know you’re not suggesting Watson is a weapon. We know you’re not high on juju. Mahomes is doing this in spite of hit WRs not because of them.
Mvs had multiple opportunities just in the Denver game where he was caught sitting on a ball instead of attacking it. If I remember one was easily catchable and the other almost led to an INT. [Reply]