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Saccopoo Memorial Draft Forum>Mock (5/4)
Direckshun 01:29 PM 05-04-2021
Let's do this thing.

Assumptions:

1. The Chiefs lose Super Bowl LVI to the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. HC Andy Reid and GM Brett Veach are retained. The salary cap jumps $35m.

2. OC Eric Bienemy is hired by your mom's favorite team to become a HC.

3. The Chiefs franchise: OT Orlando Brown.

4. The Chiefs cut: OG Laurent Duvarney-Tardif, ILB Anthony Hitchens.

5. The Chiefs extended: WR Tyreek Hill for 4 years, $80m ($52 guaranteed), S Tyrann Mathieu for 3 years, $52m ($30m guaranteeed)

6. The Chiefs tender: WR Jody Fortson, OT Prince Tega Wanogho, DE Tim Ward, LB Emmanuel Smith, LB Omari Cobb

7. The Chiefs re-sign: DT Jarran Reed 2 years, $20m ($8m guaranteed), DT Derrick Nnadi 2 years, $9m ($1m guaranteed)

8. The Chiefs re-sign to minimal deals: QB Chad Henne, RB Damien Williams, WR Marcus Kemp, LB Ben Niemann, LB Darius Harris, WR Byron Pringle, OT Mike Remmers, OG Andrew Wylie, C Austin Blythe, LS James Winchester

9. The Chiefs let walk: RB Jerick McKinnon, FB Michael Burton, OT Martinas Rankin, OG Kyle Long, WR Demarcus Robinson, TE Blake Bell, TE Nick Keizer, DE Taco Charlton, OLB Dorian O'Daniel, CB Charvarius Ward, S Dan Sorensen, S Armani Watts.

10. The Chiefs sign DE Emmanuel Ogbah to 2 years, $22m ($10m guaranteed), CB Malcolm Butler (Cardinals) to 2 years, $22m ($12m guaranteed).

11. The Chiefs are picking 31st.

The draft:

1. WR Jahan Dotson, Penn State
2. DE Zach Harrison, Ohio State
3. CB Altonae Taylor, Tennessee
3 (Bienemy). S Donovan Stiner, Florida
4. RB Max Borghi, Washington State
6. S Yusuf Corker, Kentucky
6. OG/C Brett Heggie, Florida
7. LB K'Vaughan Pope, Ohio State

the roster:

QB: Mahomes, Henne
RB: Edwards-Helaire, Williams, Borghi, Thompson
FB: some guy

WR: Hill, Dotson, Hardman, Pringle, Powell, Fortson, Kemp
TE: Kelce, Gray

LT: Brown, Remmers
LG: Thuney, Allegretti
C: Humphrey, Blythe, Heggie
RG: Smith, Wylie, Heggie
RT: Niang, Remmers, Wanogho

DE: Clark, Kaindoh, Ward
DT: Jones, Wharton
DT: Nnadi, Reed, Saunders
DE: Ogbah, Harrison, Danna

OLB: Gay, Cobb
ILB: Bolton, Niemann, Pope
OLB: Harris, Smith, Pope

CB: Sneed, Butler, Taylor, Fenton, Keyes
S: Mathieu, Thornhill, Stiner, Corker

K: Butker
P: Townsend
LS: Winchester
[Reply]
htismaqe 02:13 PM 05-05-2021
Originally Posted by Direckshun:
Okay, now hold on. What exactly is it that I've said that's so radically out there?

You guys, I swear.
You act like all they did was address the offensive line.
[Reply]
wachashi 02:44 PM 05-05-2021
Originally Posted by Direckshun:
They outscored us in the 2nd half of the regular season game after they changed up their defense.

The Bucs outplayed us in all three aspects, it wasn't just OL bad = loss. People forget Townsend punting it pretty much sideways.
The Bucs did outplay the Chiefs in all three phases. That's true. But if Townsend punts an absolutely perfect game, we're still losing that game easily. If the defense puts on a show and turns in their best performance, we're still losing that game. It's closer, but we're still losing.

It's a 100% different contest if the Chiefs have their starting offensive line. It's too much of a numbers disadvantage when our five guys can't block their four. Hell, they allowed instant pressure against a four-man rush every other down it seemed like. It's very simple math and there's no reason to overthink it. They were dropping six or seven guys in coverage. Normally when that happens, you should be able to run the ball or bide your time until someone comes open because there's no pressure. We couldn't do either. Why? Offensive line.
[Reply]
kccrow 06:47 PM 05-05-2021
I think all you guys are arguing about depends upon perspective.

Serious question 1: If Brown Jr and Lucas Niang get hurt, are we in a substantially better position than last year when Fisher and Schwartz went down?

Being devils advocate to most, I'd argue that we'll be better suited on the interior but we do remain exposed on the outside due to lack of functional depth yet again. Albeit, the chances of that happening two years in a row are relatively slim.

Serious question 2: Has the pass rush significantly improved, or improved enough to actually create substantial pressure on Brady (or any elite QB for that matter)?

While I really like what Jarran Reed brings as an interior rusher, I don't know that it's enough to consistently affect a QB. If Clark goes down, we have absolute jack and shit on the edges.

Serious question 3: Has the Chiefs' ability to cover improved in any meaningful way, regardless of position (S, CB, LB)?

As it stands, Breeland is out and that leaves a promising Sneed, a stagnant Ward, and a mediocre Fenton at CB with no real influx of talent whatsoever. Safety play remains the same. LB play will be an interesting watch now that Gay should see more snaps and he's more proficient in coverage than Wilson. That's, of course, assuming Gay actually picked up all of his assignments between last year and this year and doesn't get torched for misalignments. While I really do like the pick of Bolton, I'm not sure if he substantially improves the coverage side of things in year one. So really, I don't know if the Chiefs have gained anything, and unless they add a veteran CB I think there isn't any gain/loss in the grand scheme of things.

Add in the fact that the Chiefs are essentially trotting out the same thing at the skill positions in 2021 and there weren't any substantial, position group altering, gains outside of the current state of the offensive line, I would think there is "some" pause for thought here in looking at what Direkshun is trying to convey.

In a nutshell, the Chiefs did not drastically improve their ability to rush the passer nor did they drastically improve their ability to cover, both issues in the Super Bowl. Hopefully, they at least gave Pat a lot more time to find targets outside of Kelce and Reek because they did nothing to change the fact that the rest of the targets can't get open quickly enough to make a meaningful difference otherwise.

I think the Chiefs are a better overall team this year, so long as they don't have anything ridiculous happen again, so long as some of these young guys like Sneed, Niang, and Gay project as planned.
[Reply]
staylor26 07:12 PM 05-05-2021
1. Yea, if you’re going to assume that OBJ and Niang get hurt, the Chiefs didn’t get much better on the OL :-)

2. Yea, I don’t know how adding a top 10 interior pass rusher and one of the few guys capable of double digit sacks on the interior isn’t a significant upgrade to our pass rush. The best way to get to Brady is absolutely on the interior.

3. Having a healthy year 2 Gay and Bolton definitely upgrade our athleticism and coverage at the LB position in comparison to the SB group. Sneed should only get better in year 2. Thornhill is poised for a career year. I really don’t think our secondary was an issue as much as the biased and tight officiating took them off their game.
[Reply]
staylor26 07:25 PM 05-05-2021
Also, if we’re going to talk about potential injuries, can we talk about the Bucs?

Their entire team outside of OJ Howard was healthy for the SB. What are the chances that they get that lucky again?

Did I mention that their QB is almost 43? Something has to give at some point.
[Reply]
kccrow 12:11 AM 05-06-2021
Originally Posted by staylor26:
1. Yea, if youíre going to assume that OBJ and Niang get hurt, the Chiefs didnít get much better on the OL :-)

2. Yea, I donít know how adding a top 10 interior pass rusher and one of the few guys capable of double digit sacks on the interior isnít a significant upgrade to our pass rush. The best way to get to Brady is absolutely on the interior.

3. Having a healthy year 2 Gay and Bolton definitely upgrade our athleticism and coverage at the LB position in comparison to the SB group. Sneed should only get better in year 2. Thornhill is poised for a career year. I really donít think our secondary was an issue as much as the biased and tight officiating took them off their game.

1. I said it was unlikely. The point remains that tackle depth sucks.

2. He's a top 10 pass rusher in 2 of 5 seasons in the NFL. In 2019 he spent 6 games suspended. Hopefully, he maintains 2018 and 2020 production and availability. His best impact will likely come with he and Jones rushing together on obvious passing downs, which are likely roughly a 3rd of the total snaps. Other downs you're either taking a bit away from the run defense by taking Nnadi off the field or your moving Chris Jones out to DE where he is not as effective as a rusher himself. So there are some tradeoffs, but I did agree he's a good addition. He's the only addition that somewhat addresses the pass rush and is the best Brady beater given he collapses under interior pressure. Either way, you ignore the fact we're still one injury away from generating zero pressure off the edge and the combo of Reed and Jones is not an every-down situation.

3. You're assuming Gay will not be a liability based on athletic qualities. I am reserving judgment pending what's going on behind his ears. As I said, he has the potential to improve the pass defense. He also could be a major liability. You're also assuming Bolton would see enough snaps in coverage to make an impact as a rookie, which, based on how they handled Gay, is probably doubtful.

I'd argue are secondary was an issue. They were flagged repeatedly for grabbing receivers and some of it was warranted. I think Sneed is going to be a good one but we don't especially know if we have a 3rd CB that can step in and start if there is an injury and I'm still worried that Mathieu is the only DB that can reliably cover the slot and quick underneath routes with Sneed moving outside. It's one reason I mentioned picking up a player like DJ Hayden and adding more competition to the outside as well.

Not all is perfect, the Chiefs still have some voids they failed to address. There is time yet though so we'll see what happens.

Tampa Bay got better too. They definitely added talent that maintains or expands strengths into the future. Tryon is a terror on the edge, Hainsey looks like he'll be a top-flight guard, and Darden gives them juice from the slot.

Green Bay got better by adding Stokes at CB, they replaced Linsley with Myers, and they added Amari Rodgers in the slot which is huge, of course pending Aaron massaging his sore vagina.

The Rams are definitely better. Stafford changes their ability to consistently attack downfield and I feel like Atwell at WR, Jones at LB, and Rochell at CB were all sneaky good picks for them.

Looking more at our own conference and even getting to the SB again...

Pittsburgh is still there this year. Their top 3 picks are criminally underrated in terms of their ability to have a day 1 impact offensively. You know Ben is going to give it one last great hurrah.

I can't say enough about what Cleveland did. That team had a tremendous offseason and they damn near knocked us out last year. Newsome and Owusu-Koramoah were just outstanding picks. Adding John Johnson and Anthony Walker were enormous hole fillers. Clowney and McKinley as additions at least put something opposite Garrett. Plus, they get Delpit back at FS. That team is loaded. The only question is if Mayfield steps up even more after a really good rebound a year ago.

Buffalo at least took notes of KC's failures and addressed depth at LT and RT in the draft as well as focusing on improving their pass rush. They are still right there with no real dropoff. Plus Gabriel going into year 2 should continue to make that passing game more dangerous.

And in our own division...

The Chargers seem to be the running joke as paper tigers but they are most definitely a threat now. If Herbert doesn't look like an elite QB in the making, then I don't know who does. Adding Linsley at OC, Feiler at RG, and Slater in the draft at LT were enormous improvements to that offensive line. Asante Samuel will certainly help their secondary on an already good defense. Palmer and McKitty look like good additions in round 3 for them for the offense as well. They are good enough to threaten for the division title, especially if they can steal a head-to-head.
[Reply]
staylor26 07:48 AM 05-06-2021
1. What team can survive losing not just one but both starting T’s? I’ll wait....

2. It’s been said over and over, but I fully expect the Chiefs to add a veteran at DE. Yea, if you’re going to assume Clark goes down, looking at the roster as it is now, they’d be at trouble at DE. Even then, if that happened, they would likely make a move. They never stop looking at opportunities to get better even during the season.

3. I think it’s safe to assume that Gay and Bolton together upgrade our LB group from the SB. We’ve seen flashes from Gay, and he was clearly the most gifted LB on the roster last year even while he was still learning and inexperienced.

I love how you say that about Gay and Bolton, but give the Bills credit for getting better at edge rusher because they drafted two guys, one of whom is very raw while the other isn’t a great high ceiling pass rusher by any means.

You want to talk about the Chiefs “failures” then turn around and give the Bills credit for improving? What the fuck did they do this offseason to get better immediately? They couldn’t get pressure against the Chiefs patchwork OL and somehow two draft picks are going to be enough with all of the upgrades the Chiefs made on the OL? What did they do to fix their gaping hole at CB2?

I find it hilarious that completely rebuilding the OL in one offseason wasn’t enough for some of you. Their offseason, at least to some extent, was a “failure”. That’s completely and utterly ridiculous. It’s not like they didn’t add talent at just about every position of need except for CB, another position where I fully expect them to sign somebody at some point.
[Reply]
htismaqe 12:25 PM 05-06-2021
Originally Posted by staylor26:
Also, if weíre going to talk about potential injuries, can we talk about the Bucs?

Their entire team outside of OJ Howard was healthy for the SB. What are the chances that they get that lucky again?

Did I mention that their QB is almost 43? Something has to give at some point.
This is the Ravens argument from last year. I told everybody the Ravens were due and look what happened.

The planets don't align (or misalign in the case of the Chiefs offensive line) every year.
[Reply]
kccrow 07:01 PM 05-06-2021
Originally Posted by staylor26:
1. What team can survive losing not just one but both starting T’s? I’ll wait....

2. It’s been said over and over, but I fully expect the Chiefs to add a veteran at DE. Yea, if you’re going to assume Clark goes down, looking at the roster as it is now, they’d be at trouble at DE. Even then, if that happened, they would likely make a move. They never stop looking at opportunities to get better even during the season.

3. I think it’s safe to assume that Gay and Bolton together upgrade our LB group from the SB. We’ve seen flashes from Gay, and he was clearly the most gifted LB on the roster last year even while he was still learning and inexperienced.

I love how you say that about Gay and Bolton, but give the Bills credit for getting better at edge rusher because they drafted two guys, one of whom is very raw while the other isn’t a great high ceiling pass rusher by any means.

You want to talk about the Chiefs “failures” then turn around and give the Bills credit for improving? What the fuck did they do this offseason to get better immediately? They couldn’t get pressure against the Chiefs patchwork OL and somehow two draft picks are going to be enough with all of the upgrades the Chiefs made on the OL? What did they do to fix their gaping hole at CB2?

I find it hilarious that completely rebuilding the OL in one offseason wasn’t enough for some of you. Their offseason, at least to some extent, was a “failure”. That’s completely and utterly ridiculous. It’s not like they didn’t add talent at just about every position of need except for CB, another position where I fully expect them to sign somebody at some point.
The Bills are banking on Dane Jackson being healthy this year at CB2. If 1st and 2nd round picks don't improve their shit pass rush, nothing will, and rookies there for them is likely an improvement. Plus they have Epenesa going into year 2 so there should be some development there to help.

That said, you should absolutely be alot more concerned about Cleveland, who should have and would have knocked us out if not for the most unlucky fumble in the NFL last year on what should have been a penalty on Sorensen anyhow.

It's probably safe to assume both tackles don't get hurt again. Making any of your other assumptions is probably not safe at this point.

Clark always has some nagging injury bullshit going on and the rest of our defensive ends suck donkey sack unless one steps up and proves otherwise all of a sudden. If you want to bag on Buffalo's DE situation, ours is far more dire if Clark goes out for any length of time or turns into a turtle again because some shit.

As for our LBs, I vocally didn't like the Gay pick so I'm merely holding out hope I was wrong at this point. I'm not going to expect he can be better than Wilson or even as good as Wilson until I actually see it happen. He has the measurables to be better, but the question remains on what's going on upstairs. I'm optimistic on Bolton because he's a better football player than Niemann but he doesn't have better measurables than Niemann. So I do have some pause for concern in the passing game and whether there is any real significant step up there, if any at all. His bigger impact will be his ability to trigger downhill.
[Reply]
staylor26 07:22 PM 05-06-2021
Yea, well good luck with that Buffalo!

The only reason Cleveland remotely had a shot in that game was because Mahomes went down. Yea they definitely got better on defense, but I think our new OL offsets that in a potential matchup.

At the end of the day, I’m not worrying about any team with a QB like Mayfield when we have Mahomes.

Also, what unrealistic “other assumptions” am I making?

Even without Clark, our DL is still better than Buffalo’s because of Jones and Reed alone. They don’t have anybody of that caliber. Again, it’s likely that the Chiefs will add a veteran DE at some point. If you don’t think it’s safe to assume that, I’d say you’ve learned nothing about how Veach operates.
[Reply]
kccrow 07:29 PM 05-06-2021
Originally Posted by staylor26:
Yea, well good luck with that Buffalo!

The only reason Cleveland remotely had a shot in that game was because Mahomes went down. Yea they definitely got better on defense, but I think our new OL offsets that in a potential matchup.

Iím not worrying about any team with a QB like Mayfield when we have Mahomes.

Also, what unrealistic ďother assumptionsĒ am I making?

Even without Clark, our DL is still better than Buffaloís because of Jones and Reed alone. They donít have anybody of that caliber. Again, itís likely that the Chiefs will add a veteran DE at some point. If you donít think itís safe to assume that, Iíd say youíve learned nothing about how Veach operates.

The fact that you question whether Gay could be better is laughable. Sorry, but thatís just ducking dumb.
I would like to see a veteran CB, LB, and DE added to the fray. Instead, he's wasted some cap space on turds like Will Parks and Kam Correa... We shall see. I hope he continues his trend.
[Reply]
staylor26 07:56 PM 05-06-2021
Originally Posted by kccrow:
I would like to see a veteran CB, LB, and DE added to the fray. Instead, he's wasted some cap space on turds like Will Parks and Kam Correa... We shall see. I hope he continues his trend.
I donít think they add a LB, but i think they add a CB and DE for sure.
[Reply]
Direckshun 07:42 AM 05-07-2021
Originally Posted by kccrow:
I would like to see a veteran CB, LB, and DE added to the fray. Instead, he's wasted some cap space on turds like Will Parks and Kam Correa... We shall see. I hope he continues his trend.
According to Nate Taylor, the Chiefs are almost certainly bringing back Bashaud Breeland.

There's a 50/50 chance Melvin Ingram becomes a Chief, though.
[Reply]
RealSNR 10:34 AM 05-07-2021
The Bucs ain't gonna pressure Mahomes with just four. Not against the OL we have right now, and especially not after we've had a full season for them to gel together.

That's the bottom line. End of discussion.
[Reply]
kccrow 07:03 PM 05-07-2021
Originally Posted by RealSNR:
The Bucs ain't gonna pressure Mahomes with just four. Not against the OL we have right now, and especially not after we've had a full season for them to gel together.

That's the bottom line. End of discussion.
Oh they would, just not every play like hot knives through butter. I'd say more like about 1/6th the pressure they generated in the SB.

It's kind of insane reflecting on 29 pressures and 3 sacks in that game. That's like 50% of snaps. You'd think a fucking log could slow them down long enough to do that good, much less something that can move.
[Reply]
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