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Saccopoo Memorial Draft Forum>I am not a fan of Veach's "tier" approach.
Direckshun 09:02 AM 05-02-2021
The idea that he has players in layered tiers is not new, of course.

But here's the problem with it: in any tier you care to look at, the most valuable positions get drafted first, because of course they should. Quarterback, tackle, wide receiver, passrusher.

The last players to be chosen in any tier are going to be the lowest value players.

Running back. Linebacker. Interior offensive line.

And here we are. That's been the Chiefs last four picks in the 1st and 2nd rounds of the draft.

It's just not a great approach when you're always at the end of the round, which the Chiefs always will be under Reid and Mahomes. You need to be able to be more flexible.

The Chiefs selected a linebacker (which we do desperately need) and a center (which we kinda needed) when there were really good players in a lower tier still on the board.

How much better is Humphrey going to be than Blythe? Really?

Because remember that when we struggle to get a passrush in December, January, and February. Remember that in the Super Bowl when the Bucs run out the exact same coverage that blanketed us the first time and we still don't have a WR2 that can break free of 1 on 1 coverage. Remember that when, god forbid, one of our corners go down with injury in week 7 and we have to watch Rashad Fenton get raked for 8 weeks.

That being said, the Chiefs did get better this weekend. They just could have gotten a lot better this weekend, with how sexy the board looked when they were up to pick.

Pick by pick reviews.

LB Nick Bolton, Missouri -- The Chiefs probably have the best linebacking corps now that they've had in a decade. Hitchens finally seems to understand the system, Gay looked really solid all year and came on until his injury, and Bolton's going to be really good. He's a smart player with limited athleticism, so really a perfect Spags linebacker. But he may be a two-down player, and I see a lot of Kawika Mitchell in him -- neither of those are deserving of the 2nd round pick we spent. C-

C Creed Humphrey, Oklahoma -- I think Humphrey has Pro Bowl upside, and honestly the Chiefs track record on 2nd round centers is stellar with Mitch Morse and Rodney Hudson. I think he's going to be a starter here for 10 years. I'd had preferred other players, but this was a good get. A-

DE Joshua Kaindoh, Florida State -- I really don't like this pick, and only talked myself into it the day of the draft because we are so desperate at the position. Kaindoh has every bit of the size you need, but he just has no feel for the game. This is a Demetrius-Harris-sized project. Harris turned out to be pretty good, but it took us four years to get there. Kaindoh may yield the same returns at a different position. D+

TE Noah Gray, Duke -- I really hope the loss of Anthony Sherman didn't mess with our heads badly enough to take this guy, as the team later was communicating he could be a flex fullback. It's hard for me to get too worked up about Gray, however, one way or the other. I think he's fine, but a poor fit, but the 5th round on was just garbage in terms of options. C+

WR Cornell Powell, Clemson -- The questions with Powell entirely will be between the ears. He is already physically maxed out and is pretty great with the ball in his hands. I imagine he will peak out in a couple seaons as a WR3 in our offense, but if the Chiefs continue to fail to find a really good WR2, he could ascend to a shrug-WR2, someone to play the position non-pathetically until we find the next Sammy Watkins. I think his ceiling is Chris Conley, which is nothing to write home about, but that's a really great get in a draft this garbage. B+

OG Tre Smith, Tennessee -- Home run. No question. This is why you don't burn $80m on a guard, or draft one in the 2nd round. Dorsey made his living finding really good guards late in the draft, and Veach has finally done it himself. Smith will not crack the lineup this year, but he's going to be our starting RG in 2022 -- bank on it. I have no idea how Veach landed this, when it was late in the 6th round and teams were just taking long snappers because there was no talent left on the board. A+
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O.city 10:20 AM 05-02-2021
Originally Posted by staylor26:
Daniel Jeremiah had Bolton 30th. He feels the Chiefs got a 1st round player (in this draft) at 58.

BuT PoSiTiOnAl VaLuE!!

Value IS value.
Obviously the league had him a little different though.

In the end, it will all come down to him. If he shows he can run and play 3 downs, it was a great pick and it was wrong for him to fall. If he ends up a 2 down Reggie Ragland type guy, yeah he fell for a reason
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staylor26 10:34 AM 05-02-2021
Originally Posted by O.city:
Obviously the league had him a little different though.

In the end, it will all come down to him. If he shows he can run and play 3 downs, it was a great pick and it was wrong for him to fall. If he ends up a 2 down Reggie Ragland type guy, yeah he fell for a reason
Orrrr he fell because of positional value and/or needs.

We don’t know.

I do know that he was a consensus top 40-50 guy that some even had in the 1st.

That’s value at 58.

And :-) he’s so much better than Ragland. He’s a 3 down player even if he’s not a stud in coverage. He’s capable.
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O.city 10:36 AM 05-02-2021
Originally Posted by staylor26:
Orrrr he fell because of positional value and needs.

We donít know.

I do know that he was a consensus top 40-50 guy that some even had in the 1st.

Thatís value at 58.

And :-) heís so much better than Ragland :-)
We know what Ragland was/is in the league. As prospects, they seem fairly similar.

Legit 3 down linebackers donít tend to fall if thatís what the league thinks they are. Iím hoping heís more devin bush jr than the league seems to think
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staylor26 10:37 AM 05-02-2021
Originally Posted by O.city:
We know what Ragland was/is in the league. As prospects, they seem fairly similar.

Legit 3 down linebackers don’t tend to fall if that’s what the league thinks they are. I’m hoping he’s more devin bush jr than the league seems to think
:-)

You went form this:

Originally Posted by O.city:
If Bolton is there, I'd take him. He's a stud.

I really like Humphrey and Davis the more I've read about them.
To that. So fucking dumb.
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O.city 10:38 AM 05-02-2021
Originally Posted by staylor26:
:-)
ďHe didnít show it as much in college but heís capableĒ seems pretty spot on for Ragland coming out no?
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O.city 10:39 AM 05-02-2021
Originally Posted by staylor26:
:-)

You went form this:



To that. So ****ing dumb.
Are we not allowed to change our minds as we go along with new information?

I have no clue when I said that, was probably after he had a million tackles in a mizzou game
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O.city 10:40 AM 05-02-2021
I’m not disparaging him comparing him to Ragland as a prospect. I’m not saying that’s what he’ll become.

I’m saying they had similar issues coming out of college and things they needed to do at the next level.

Hopefully Bolton can do it.
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staylor26 10:41 AM 05-02-2021
Originally Posted by O.city:
“He didn’t show it as much in college but he’s capable” seems pretty spot on for Ragland coming out no?
That’s not what I said. At all. He did show that he’s capable in coverage. That doesn’t mean he can’t get/be better, but he’s not Reggie fucking Ragland either.

There’s a lot more reason to believe Bolton can be a 3 down LB than Ragland. Anybody that thinks otherwise is clueless or hasn’t really watched Bolton’s tape.

Even PFF had a very good grade on Bolton in terms of coverage. He’s not great at it, but he’s absolutely capable. He also has ball skills and plays a lot faster/quicker than Ragland.
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staylor26 10:44 AM 05-02-2021
Originally Posted by O.city:
Are we not allowed to change our minds as we go along with new information?

I have no clue when I said that, was probably after he had a million tackles in a mizzou game
What exactly changed from then to now where you went from saying he was a stud that you would take in the 1st to him being a “meh” pick all the way down at 58?

I’m all ears...
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O.city 10:45 AM 05-02-2021
Originally Posted by staylor26:
Thatís not what I said. At all. He did show that heís capable in coverage. That doesnít mean he canít get/be better, but heís not Reggie ****ing Ragland either.

Thereís a lot more reason to believe Bolton can be a 3 down LB than Ragland. Anybody that thinks otherwise is clueless or hasnít really watched Boltonís tape.

Even PFF had a very good grade on Bolton in terms of coverage. Heís not great at it, but heís absolutely capable. He also has ball skills and plays a lot faster/quicker than Ragland.
I think youíre confusing what Iím saying here. As a prospect, that was what was said about Ragland. He ended up going in the first round.

Bolton has similar question marks and it likely pushed him down the board a little.

Iím not saying he canít do it. Hopefully he can.
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O.city 10:47 AM 05-02-2021
Originally Posted by staylor26:
What exactly changed from then to now where you went from saying he was a stud that you would take in the 1st to him being a “meh” pick all the way down at 58?

I’m all ears...
Didn’t test very well.

Based on what I’ve read atleast. I didn’t so much watching on this class either way, don’t really have time. So you’re probably right. You spend way more time on this than I do.

Have you not ever had a guy you liked a lot early that you eventually liked less? Maybe that’s just me
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O.city 10:49 AM 05-02-2021
Originally Posted by staylor26:
Thatís not what I said. At all. He did show that heís capable in coverage. That doesnít mean he canít get/be better, but heís not Reggie ****ing Ragland either.

Thereís a lot more reason to believe Bolton can be a 3 down LB than Ragland. Anybody that thinks otherwise is clueless or hasnít really watched Boltonís tape.

Even PFF had a very good grade on Bolton in terms of coverage. Heís not great at it, but heís absolutely capable. He also has ball skills and plays a lot faster/quicker than Ragland.
Hopefully itís a case of ďplays faster than he testsĒ maybe? He always seemed pretty good at mizzou
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Bowser 10:52 AM 05-02-2021
We have more depth across the board right now at nearly every position than we have had in years, maybe excluding corner and receiver, and this team has been to three AFCCG's and two Super Bowls in a row. Not only do I trust in Veach and his guys to do their due diligence researching who to bring into the fold, I trust our positional coaches and coordinators to maximize these guys' abilities and when and where to use them.

Did we reach with a couple of picks when we should have taken someone else? Sure, quite probably. Am I concerned about it? Not in the least. I'm stoked about these picks, every one of them. Even Kaindoh who can start on special teams and learn from Okafor, Taco, Clark, and Danna.
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staylor26 10:54 AM 05-02-2021
Originally Posted by O.city:
Hopefully it’s a case of “plays faster than he tests” maybe? He always seemed pretty good at mizzou
That’s absolutely how I feel. I’m not as concerned with the testing (which wasn’t that bad if I’m being honest) because he plays much faster on tape. He’s instinctive and can run sideline to sideline when you watch him. Never mind Ragland, I think he has more upside as a 3 down LB than Hitchens too.

I’m just giving you a hard time though.
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Chris Meck 11:27 AM 05-02-2021
Oh man. Where to start with this post?

Let's start here:

1)99% of the mock drafts and 'expert analysis' bullshit we see is based on rumors and guesses by people who are not and never have been NFL scouts. Most of them are no more qualified than you or I to run an NFL draft room; and you or I are absolutely NOT qualified just because we read what these guys say and watch some YouTube videos.

2) The concept of positional value above all else ignores CONTEXT. Judging an individual draft by that that concept ignores so many variables that are really important like:

A)team needs, which include cap situations regarding veterans going forward, the depth chart and whether this position is likely to see the field any time soon

B)Scheme fit- sure that player may be EDGE RUSHER #6, which is excellent value in the late 2nd round, but he's 245 lbs. and best suited as a 3-4 OLB, and is likely to ONLY be successful as a situational pass rusher in a 4-3 base/heavy nickel like we run here. So no, he's not as valuable as a guy who may play 60 snaps plus a game at a less 'premier' position of NEED.

3)Your premise assumes that there is a huge difference between, say, WR #8 and WR #16. The reality is, because of scheme fit, differences of opinion in scouts rankings, and such WE have no earthly idea who WR #8 even is to any specific team, and the difference between WR #8 and #16 may be a big difference or very little. A lot of times, guys are bunched in very similar talent groups and you don't know what variables make the fit a good one or not. Maybe WR #8 is faster, but he's dumb as a rock and unlikely to be able to digest an Andy Reid playbook. WR #16 is super smart and a better route runner which allows him to play 'quicker' than his 40 time but he played in a dumbed down offense in college so you and I don't know that, but the scouts do and he's a better fit actually than WR #8.

So do you reach for WR #16? You could, and then everybody talks about how stupid you are, because that guy has a fourth round grade, and this guy you passed over was a clear second round talent, yadda yadda yadda. So you wait and you take him where it makes sense to, and in the meantime-

4) KC is picking at the back end of every round. IF they stay with the so-called 'higher value, premier positions' they will forever be drafting lesser talent. This is a formula for a declining team. The system is literally set up that way-to encourage parity and discourage dynasties. If you keep your board open to any position that is a scheme and need fit you can get elite players albeit at 'less valued positions'. Having young, cost controlled elite talent is the key to keeping this SB train running as long as we can with Mahomes. You fill in what you need to in free agency, but the draft is still the foundation.

So, you take WR #8 in the second round, and end up with IOL #30 in round 6 and hope he can be a good starting Center in a couple of seasons because positional value! .This is how you end up with Reiter and Wylie.

But WR#16 was actually an equally good fit for the team and you could wait and grab him in the 4th because he's a really SPECIFIC good fit for this offense more so than some others and your scouts just love him. So you take the LB and the OC in the second because they fit perfect and you can greatly improve two separate position groupings from good to elite.

That's of more value than WR#8.

We need elite young cost controlled talent for now, and for the near future. You don't get that by drafting lower rated players at higher rated positions according to unqualified draftniks.

We got EXCELLENT value in round 2 with late first/early 2nd rated guys at positions of need; and the Offensive line has gone from our biggest weakness to an elite group for this season and seasons to come. The LB corps from our biggest defensive weakness to one with great promise for this season and the near future. We made our team weaknesses into strengths.
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