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Saccopoo Memorial Draft Forum>I am not a fan of Veach's "tier" approach.
Direckshun 09:02 AM 05-02-2021
The idea that he has players in layered tiers is not new, of course.

But here's the problem with it: in any tier you care to look at, the most valuable positions get drafted first, because of course they should. Quarterback, tackle, wide receiver, passrusher.

The last players to be chosen in any tier are going to be the lowest value players.

Running back. Linebacker. Interior offensive line.

And here we are. That's been the Chiefs last four picks in the 1st and 2nd rounds of the draft.

It's just not a great approach when you're always at the end of the round, which the Chiefs always will be under Reid and Mahomes. You need to be able to be more flexible.

The Chiefs selected a linebacker (which we do desperately need) and a center (which we kinda needed) when there were really good players in a lower tier still on the board.

How much better is Humphrey going to be than Blythe? Really?

Because remember that when we struggle to get a passrush in December, January, and February. Remember that in the Super Bowl when the Bucs run out the exact same coverage that blanketed us the first time and we still don't have a WR2 that can break free of 1 on 1 coverage. Remember that when, god forbid, one of our corners go down with injury in week 7 and we have to watch Rashad Fenton get raked for 8 weeks.

That being said, the Chiefs did get better this weekend. They just could have gotten a lot better this weekend, with how sexy the board looked when they were up to pick.

Pick by pick reviews.

LB Nick Bolton, Missouri -- The Chiefs probably have the best linebacking corps now that they've had in a decade. Hitchens finally seems to understand the system, Gay looked really solid all year and came on until his injury, and Bolton's going to be really good. He's a smart player with limited athleticism, so really a perfect Spags linebacker. But he may be a two-down player, and I see a lot of Kawika Mitchell in him -- neither of those are deserving of the 2nd round pick we spent. C-

C Creed Humphrey, Oklahoma -- I think Humphrey has Pro Bowl upside, and honestly the Chiefs track record on 2nd round centers is stellar with Mitch Morse and Rodney Hudson. I think he's going to be a starter here for 10 years. I'd had preferred other players, but this was a good get. A-

DE Joshua Kaindoh, Florida State -- I really don't like this pick, and only talked myself into it the day of the draft because we are so desperate at the position. Kaindoh has every bit of the size you need, but he just has no feel for the game. This is a Demetrius-Harris-sized project. Harris turned out to be pretty good, but it took us four years to get there. Kaindoh may yield the same returns at a different position. D+

TE Noah Gray, Duke -- I really hope the loss of Anthony Sherman didn't mess with our heads badly enough to take this guy, as the team later was communicating he could be a flex fullback. It's hard for me to get too worked up about Gray, however, one way or the other. I think he's fine, but a poor fit, but the 5th round on was just garbage in terms of options. C+

WR Cornell Powell, Clemson -- The questions with Powell entirely will be between the ears. He is already physically maxed out and is pretty great with the ball in his hands. I imagine he will peak out in a couple seaons as a WR3 in our offense, but if the Chiefs continue to fail to find a really good WR2, he could ascend to a shrug-WR2, someone to play the position non-pathetically until we find the next Sammy Watkins. I think his ceiling is Chris Conley, which is nothing to write home about, but that's a really great get in a draft this garbage. B+

OG Tre Smith, Tennessee -- Home run. No question. This is why you don't burn $80m on a guard, or draft one in the 2nd round. Dorsey made his living finding really good guards late in the draft, and Veach has finally done it himself. Smith will not crack the lineup this year, but he's going to be our starting RG in 2022 -- bank on it. I have no idea how Veach landed this, when it was late in the 6th round and teams were just taking long snappers because there was no talent left on the board. A+
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RunKC 02:04 PM 05-13-2021
We knew Basham could play downs at 3 technique, but playing there full time at 274lbs?

He’s gotta be a rotational versatile piece right?
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htismaqe 02:12 PM 05-13-2021
Doesn't Buffalo run the 4-3 under? So they're going to move him around like they would in a 3-4.
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kccrow 08:04 PM 05-13-2021
Originally Posted by htismaqe:
Doesn't Buffalo run the 4-3 under? So they're going to move him around like they would in a 3-4.
That was my thoughts too. He won't play 3-T, he's going to play 5-T. They brought in Rousseau to play Leo.
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O.city 07:41 AM 05-14-2021
Originally Posted by RunKC:
I think Spags was sick and tired of putting Neimann and Sorenson at LB. In our 2 losses to the Raiders and Bucs we got our shit pushed in at the 2nd level.

In the SB we didnít have Willie Gay, and to their credit Wilson (goal line stop) and Hitchens (forced incompletion in end zone) made plays but if you watch the 2nd half of the SB Brady literally went to the line and audibled.

Is Sorenson in as a LB? Okay weíre running.
Is Neimann in but with Sorenson to put 8 in the box? Okay weíre doing play action.

We had nothing in the middle of the field. It was by far our biggest weakness heading into the draft. They just could not expose Ben Neimann and/or Sorenson at LB anymore.

Add that our biggest competition for a ring requires us to defend the middle of the field and the run. Browns, Ravens and Bucs.

I wasnít a big Bolton fan but I completely understand the pick
I'm fine with it. I've been banging the "ILB who can play all 3 downs" drum for a while. I'm hopeful Bolton can do it. Dude has it all mentally, physically we'll just have to wait and see.

I'm excited with it. Alot of our problems against the run IMO, are that we have to play subpackages so much.
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O.city 07:42 AM 05-14-2021
If you want a DE, I think you need to look for one to actually replace Clark in the near future. So you need a real war daddy on that side that can bend. Those usually don't go in the late 2nd.

So next years #1 is likely gonna be that.
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DaneMcCloud 12:35 PM 05-14-2021
Originally Posted by O.city:
If you want a DE, I think you need to look for one to actually replace Clark in the near future. So you need a real war daddy on that side that can bend. Those usually don't go in the late 2nd.

So next years #1 is likely gonna be that.
Either DE or WR because their WR corp is just not very strong, especially considering the Chiefs have the best QB in the NFL.

Veach really needs to hit on at least two wide receivers that can be productive immediately in next year's draft because they won't be able to afford to pay another guy $16 million plus over the next several years because Hill is going to get at least $20.
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Pitt Gorilla 01:34 PM 05-14-2021
Originally Posted by staylor26:
Thereís your ďgo toĒ. Now Iím just a homer.

This team often does what I want/expect them to do.

When theyíre taking 3 guys that I had on my list of 1st round targets (thread) early in the process without even having a 1st round pick, of course Iím going to love our draft.

Thereís proof all over this section that I was high on Bolton, Humphrey, Powell, Kaindoh, and Smith long before they became Chiefs.

Hell, you even asked me before day 3 who I wanted at edge rusher, and Kaindoh was literally one of the guys I mentioned. So itís very disingenuous of you to pretend that Iím just being a homer.

I loved Travis Kelce, Chris Jones, Patrick Mahomes, Willie Gay, Mecole Hardman, Juan Thornhill, LíJarius Sneed, Clyde Edwards-Helaire etc. all before the Chiefs drafted them. I have receipts as well.

Itís not my fault that me and the Chiefs/Veach see eye to eye on prospects often.

I wasnít a huge fan of the Speaks pick or the 2018 draft as a whole, so itís not like I just go along with whatever they do. Donít let the facts get in the way of your narrative though!
That's a hell of a record.
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O.city 01:46 PM 05-14-2021
Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud:
Either DE or WR because their WR corp is just not very strong, especially considering the Chiefs have the best QB in the NFL.

Veach really needs to hit on at least two wide receivers that can be productive immediately in next year's draft because they won't be able to afford to pay another guy $16 million plus over the next several years because Hill is going to get at least $20.
Yep

Although atleast with wr you have andy whoís been able to develop mid rounders. I think youíve gotta invest in one at some point but thatís also where Hardman needs to get his shit together
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DaneMcCloud 02:40 PM 05-14-2021
Originally Posted by O.city:
Although atleast with wr you have andy who’s been able to develop mid rounders.
Maybe, but that hasn't happened much, if at all, during his time in KC.

Demarcus Robinson is the very definition of a JAG. While the Chiefs have given every opportunity to guys like Kemp, Fortson and Pringle, they've done absolutely nothing of note on the field.

Chris Conley was a decent selection but the Chiefs actually traded up for Conley, who did not live up to expectations, mainly due to injury. By the time he was a solid contributor in Year 4, the Chiefs let him walk.

It's really beyond time to address the WR corp, especially since the Chiefs can no longer afford to pay two impact WR's $16 to $20 million each.

It would be nice if Powell exceeds the expectations normally assigned to fifth round picks, the odds are against him even becoming a Demarcus Robinson, let alone, a Sammy Watkins.
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O.city 02:47 PM 05-14-2021
Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud:
Maybe, but that hasn't happened much, if at all, during his time in KC.

Demarcus Robinson is the very definition of a JAG. While the Chiefs have given every opportunity to guys like Kemp, Fortson and Pringle, they've done absolutely nothing of note on the field.

Chris Conley was a decent selection but the Chiefs actually traded up for Conley, who did not live up to expectations, mainly due to injury. By the time he was a solid contributor in Year 4, the Chiefs let him walk.

It's really beyond time to address the WR corp, especially since the Chiefs can no longer afford to pay two impact WR's $16 to $20 million each.

It would be nice if Powell exceeds the expectations normally assigned to fifth round picks, the odds are against him even becoming a Demarcus Robinson, let alone, a Sammy Watkins.
Tyreek was a 5th round running back whoís been developed. Kelce a third rounder etc.

Odds arenít great for this guys but heís got production out of guys like Albert wilson and Conley so as long as they have Hill they will probably have to go with young guys or cheap vets at #2 wr
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DaneMcCloud 02:58 PM 05-14-2021
Originally Posted by O.city:
Tyreek was a 5th round running back who’s been developed. Kelce a third rounder etc.
Oh, come on. That's disingenuous. Had Hill not plead guilty to choking his girlfriend at the time, the guy would have absolutely destroyed at the Combine and would have gone much, much higher in the draft. He'd have gone in the top of the 2nd round without a doubt and considering his speed, he may have been a 1st rounder.

Had Kelce not been a megadipshit in college who missed an entire season due to his dumbassery, he'd have gone much, much higher as well.

If you're going to bring up examples of True mid rounders, the only two receivers of note are Chris Conley and Demarcus Robinson, two guys that probably lived up to their draft status but nothing more.

Originally Posted by O.city:
Odds aren’t great for this guys but he’s got production out of guys like Albert wilson and Conley so as long as they have Hill they will probably have to go with young guys or cheap vets at #2 wr
Well unfortunately, by the time those guys were playing at a high enough level, the Chiefs allowed both to walk. I didn't really care much for Alligator Arms Wilson but I thought it was a mistake to allow Conley to walk on the cheap.

There must have been something personality-wise that didn't fit in the Chiefs lockerroom because he's a far better #3 or #4 than anyone else who's been given those roster spots and the $2.3 million he earned each season in Jacksonville certainly wasn't a back-breaker in terms of the cap.
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RunKC 06:19 PM 05-14-2021
Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud:
Either DE or WR because their WR corp is just not very strong, especially considering the Chiefs have the best QB in the NFL.

Veach really needs to hit on at least two wide receivers that can be productive immediately in next year's draft because they won't be able to afford to pay another guy $16 million plus over the next several years because Hill is going to get at least $20.
Agree. I do think however that Noah Gray is going to be a really nice option as a receiver. Not expecting him to blow up but I can definitely see him making plays as that 3rd receiving option on 3rd down
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Chris Meck 10:54 PM 05-14-2021
We're going to have to develop WR's. We'll be paying Hill for a long time yet.

That's fine. Good problem to have.

:-)
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kcbubb 04:30 PM 05-21-2021
Originally Posted by kccrow:
I don't think it tells you any of that.

They may have liked Perkins and Basham better than anyone on the roster and any other edge rushers remaining but didn't have them valued as high as Bolton and Humphrey. It's not like LB and OC weren't also future needs at a minimum.

I personally valued both over Bolton but not over Humphrey, albeit Perkins was a fringe fit here. I'd have likely taken Humphrey over any of them at 58 which takes Basham out of play regardless. If it came to Bolton vs Perkins, that would have been an awfully rough choice to make but I likely would have gone Perkins. It's easy for me to look in retrospect and say Basham and Humphrey but the draft doesn't run that way and you have to think who you would have taken first. Hopefully, Veach comes out the smart one and we all look back and think he made great choices.
The chiefs didnít pick basham or Perkins bc they donít fit the chiefs d. They would be situational players and just not a good fit. Thatís why basham and Perkins werenít picked and why kaindoh was. The chiefs donít pass on a DE that they really liked bc they liked Bolton. Boltonís a solid pick but you donít pass over DE that you really like for Bolton.
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kccrow 05:14 PM 05-21-2021
Originally Posted by kcbubb:
The chiefs didnít pick basham or Perkins bc they donít fit the chiefs d. They would be situational players and just not a good fit. Thatís why basham and Perkins werenít picked and why kaindoh was. The chiefs donít pass on a DE that they really liked bc they liked Bolton. Boltonís a solid pick but you donít pass over DE that you really like for Bolton.
Again, no guarantee of that IMO. I feel as though you're jumping to unjustified, absolute conclusions based on zero evidence. We can only deal in possibilities. The Chiefs may have thought they wanted both Bolton and Basham but felt Bolton was the better-graded player and that Basham had the better chance to slip to 63. There really is no absolute here other than what Veach and company thought.

I can feel very confident that Basham was on their board because he absolutely fits the defense. It's more of a matter of where on that board he was. It doesn't mean he didn't fit KC's D by any stretch, and he is definitely not going to be playing inside. To top it off, he's a player that was universally graded higher than Kaindoh by 3 rounds. He's a guy that is a better overall player than what they started last year in all phases at LDE and his ability to rush the passer from the edge is severely understated. He likely plays the 5T DE position in the 4-3 Under in Indy since he isn't a pure speed, Wide 9 rusher, that would man the Leo there. Think more along the lines of Seattle drafting LJ Collier, albeit he was taken way too early and is was not as good coming out as Basham. He's a solid DE at 270-275 and showed the ability to live in the backfield. After all, he did have 22.5 tackles for a loss on 85.5 tackles with 15 sacks in his last 19 games along with 7 forced fumbles. The dude is a player on the edge. I honestly think KC made a big mistake passing on Basham for Bolton, even if I do like Bolton and what he brings to the table. Like I said though, we don't know where exactly he was on their board. I feel pretty good that it was higher than Kaindoh by a healthy margin but I can't say absolutely. That said, there is a reason Basham went 2 rounds earlier.

As for Perkins, there is a good chance he wasn't on their board but I'm not sure it is absolute in terms of schematic fit and could be more about the issues he had that led to the suspension and other information gathered in the process. In terms of schematic fit, he's basically the same size as Frank Clark (definitely not the 271 he was at the combine but closer to about 250) so, again, I feel like just outright saying its schematic fit is making a big assumption. He's a first-round caliber producer that fell to the end of the 3rd, so there's something there other than skill for every team but I don't know what it is and neither do you. I give you a lot more leeway on the assumption he's not a fit here than with Basham.
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