About a month ago, I was into the Whiskey and looking for reasons (excuses) to dive deeper into the abyss. I texted a friend while drunk and asked him why he had put me down in front of some people we were golfing with. He's super competitive and does this to mess with me because he knows I don't like it. It didn't really set well with me however I didn't say anything at the time. Mistake one. Mistake two was texting while drunk asking him why he felt it was necessary to put me down in front of a group of strangers. He asked if I was drinking Whiskey and I said yes. He basically texted back the he was sorry I feel bad. I sent him a text the next day saying that I was sorry for acting like a victim and was embarrassed by the whole thing. The last response I got was "I'm done with this conversation.".
This is someone that I've known for 40 years and helped me after my father died. We've been through a lot and I haven't heard anything from him. I'm to the point where I feel like dropping by his house to make sure he's okay. I haven't gotten any responses to texts about anything; wishing him a happy Thanksgiving, etc.
Originally Posted by TwistedChief:
Hmmm… your point of view here doesn’t vibe with me. Life isn’t always all transactional and reciprocal. Sometimes people get something out of doing something that’s beyond what others might understand.
Perhaps your relative enjoys being helpful. Feels valued and appreciated. Perhaps that brings him some sort of joy/self-esteem that you don’t necessarily see.
At a minimum I don’t think you should feel bothered by it unless he expresses that sort of feeling to you.
The argument would be that he is still doing those things to fulfill personal (selfish?) needs to feel valued, appreciated, and improve his self-esteem. You could argue he is using those people’s times of need in order to prop himself up. It would honestly be more altruistic if he hated doing those favors yet never said a word about that and did them at a personal cost to himself. [Reply]
Originally Posted by crayzkirk:
Well, my house flooded and I sent him a text saying I needed his help. Nothing but silence. I guess we are done. I think I need to change my expectations around my friends, or those people who I think are my friends. Politics has ruined a lot of relationships in the past two years and this guy is a liberal loving Democrat that wouldn't go around anyone who wasn't vaccinated. He's a good NPC that expect the government to take care of him
If you were my friend I would abandon you at the fire station or a QuikTrip. [Reply]
OP on a serious note forget all that shit you're talking about with your friend you need to look within man. You're on a message board talking shit about him to strangers calling him stupid shit like "He's a NPC" after he helped you after the loss of your father dummy. You're the asshole. You #1 need to put the phone down while drinking #2 learn to appreciate your friends but I don't think any of this will be corrected until you look within and see that you are the asshole [Reply]
Originally Posted by mr. tegu:
The argument would be that he is still doing those things to fulfill personal (selfish?) needs to feel valued, appreciated, and improve his self-esteem. You could argue he is using those people’s times of need in order to prop himself up. It would honestly be more altruistic if he hated doing those favors yet never said a word about that and did them at a personal cost to himself.
You’re missing the point. This isn’t a discussion of whether there are any truly altruistic acts which is what you’re addressing. It was a question of balance where an outsider assumes that one side is taking advantage of another and where it bothers the outsider. And my point is that people derive value in different ways and balance to one need not look like balance to another. [Reply]
Originally Posted by TwistedChief:
You’re missing the point. This isn’t a discussion of whether there are any truly altruistic acts which is what you’re addressing. It was a question of balance where an outsider assumes that one side is taking advantage of another and where it bothers the outsider. And my point is that people derive value in different ways and balance to one need not look like balance to another.
I don’t think I am. You said things aren’t always transactional or reciprocal but you are still actually arguing it’s a transactional relationship. Just that the transaction isn’t immediately obvious to him as the person might be getting things out of the relationship such as value, appreciated, self esteem not easily observed and as such this person doing the favors isn’t necessarily getting the short end of the stick. Which is fine as there’s nothing wrong with the guy getting those personal benefits for favors. My point about altruism is that in order for it not be transactional and reciprocal like you originally indicated (then undermined) the circumstances I described would more closely resemble such a thing.
Edit: that said, on a philosophical spectrum his relative is still exhibiting less of a transactional behavior than someone who would charge money of the relatives for the service as his reward is materialized internally, and not dependent on the other people rewarding him for the work. The lesson here with regards to it being even more altruistic if his relative did these favors and if he hated doing it or cost him personally, is that Calvin’s dad is correct.
Originally Posted by mr. tegu:
I don’t think I am. You said things aren’t always transactional or reciprocal but you are still actually arguing it’s a transactional relationship. Just that the transaction isn’t immediately obvious to him as the person might be getting things out of the relationship such as value, appreciated, self esteem not easily observed and as such this person doing the favors isn’t necessarily getting the short end of the stick. Which is fine as there’s nothing wrong with the guy getting those personal benefits for favors. My point about altruism is that in order for it not be transactional and reciprocal like you originally indicated (then undermined) the circumstances I described would more closely resemble such a thing.
Edit: that said, on a philosophical spectrum his relative is still exhibiting less of a transactional behavior than someone who would charge money of the relatives for the service as his reward is materialized internally, and not dependent on the other people rewarding him for the work. The lesson here with regards to it being even more altruistic if his relative did these favors and if he hated doing it or cost him personally, is that Calvin’s dad is correct.
Ah, I think I initially misunderstood what you were getting at. I think it speaks to what "reciprocal" actually means and the value being exchanged in an act like that. And for some people, there needs to be an exchange of somewhat equal value for it to be understood. For others, they understand that value is in the eye of the beholder.
I am sure you're aware of the argument that the only truly 'altruistic' act is essentially taking a bullet for someone else and dying. [Reply]
Originally Posted by TwistedChief:
Ah, I think I initially misunderstood what you were getting at. I think it speaks to what "reciprocal" actually means and the value being exchanged in an act like that. And for some people, there needs to be an exchange of somewhat equal value for it to be understood. For others, they understand that value is in the eye of the beholder.
I am sure you're aware of the argument that the only truly 'altruistic' act is essentially taking a bullet for someone else and dying.
Yeah correct and that really is the important term here, “reciprocal” as it is the continuum I was highlighting that, as you point out, there’s an argument the end of it involves self sacrifice of the highest order. I think your point about him not assuming the guy is getting taken advantage of is correct and important because of the likely and valid reasons you brought up.
I think I was also using this altruistic scale to point out in his situation that someone doing the favors really could be doing so with a more nefarious purpose and we could look at it that way if so desired. I only alluded to it but maybe the have a pathological desire to be needed that isn’t met so they sabotage the plumbing fixes? Maybe that oil change was done with the wrong oil? Well guess that means the guy “has to” go back and fix things some more and receive some praise. Sort of a Munchausen by proxy.
Knowing rain man this night get him inquisitive though so I suspect we will know soon enough if his relative is manipulating others and sabotaging projects for selfish needs or if he simply enjoys the internal rewards provided by helping family and getting the opportunity to use his life skills for others (another major motivating factor I think). [Reply]
Originally Posted by mr. tegu:
Knowing rain man this night get him inquisitive though so I suspect we will know soon enough if his relative is manipulating others and sabotaging projects for selfish needs or if he simply enjoys the internal rewards provided by helping family and getting the opportunity to use his life skills for others (another major motivating factor I think).
I fully anticipate that all of Rain Man's relatives will soon receive a survey in the mail asking them to compare their assessment of these projects to a list of John Hughes moves. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Titty Meat:
OP on a serious note forget all that shit you're talking about with your friend you need to look within man. You're on a message board talking shit about him to strangers calling him stupid shit like "He's a NPC" after he helped you after the loss of your father dummy. You're the asshole. You #1 need to put the phone down while drinking #2 learn to appreciate your friends but I don't think any of this will be corrected until you look within and see that you are the asshole
I still think that both sides are wrong....acting like the poster is the only wrong person here is silly.
Everyone is acting like his friend was in the right...completely ignoring the fact that his put downs during the golf outing shows a big sign of insecurities on his part.
I am all for good natured ribbing....it's part of all our nature's. But some use it as a way to put people down because they feel the need to.
The poster needs to admit he acted poorly by texting drunk and for continuing in a friendship that was toxic.
Thanks for the input; yes, it is a one sided situation. You find out who your real friends are when you need help. I've put up with being put down and shit upon for most of my life so when I stand up for myself, people don't like it.
I must have unrealistic expectations; another one of my friends offers to help, then comes over wasted, late and starts making insensitive jokes about my situation. I treat my friends like family and my error is expecting that in return. He got upset when I called him on it as well.
Most likely, this is because I am always even keeled and don't show how I feel. I let things build up and then I boil over.
And as others have said, the big difference is that when someone whom I consider my friend tells me they have a problem, they don't even have to ask me. I am there for them. [Reply]
