Originally Posted by :
The 2022 NFL Draft was another strong year for wide receiver talent, and many assumed that a run on wide receivers would happen in the first round. That panned out with the Falcons taking Drake London at No. 8 and three other receivers were taken over the next four picks. The levee breaking on wideouts led to Jahan Dotson ending up as the 16th pick of the 2022 NFL Draft, and some analysts thought Western Michigan's Skyy Moore would go late in the first round thanks to the run on receivers.
Moore was superb throughout 2021, hauling in 95 passes for 1,292 yards and 10 touchdowns. The junior also worked out well before the 2022 NFL Draft. Hence, there were some projecting him to the opening night of the draft, so some were surprised when he slid to late in the second round.
NFL team sources actually had Moore graded lower than the media hype. Some teams had him graded in the second round and others had him in Round 3. They saw some limitations with his size and thought Moore (5-10, 196) could have problems with longer cornerbacks as a pro. Thus, teams did not see a real slide with Moore.
The Kansas City Chiefs ended Moore's slide, and they are a mixed landing spot for him. On the plus side, Moore landed with an elite quarterback in Pat Mahomes and a great coaching staff led by future Hall of Fame Andy Reid. On the negative side, Moore is in a crowded depth chart, as the Chiefs have established veterans like JuJu Smith-Schuster, Marquez Valdes-Scantling, Mecole Hardman and Josh Gordon. Due to the a second-round pick investment in him, Moore is assured of making the roster, but he could have a hard time breaking out in an offense that spreads the ball around and features tight end Travis Kelce. Moore will have to earn his playing time, but if he can break through to a starting job, he could turn into a very productive pro operating with Mahomes and Reid.
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
And yet...13th WR taken. Seems like the NFL writ large would say there's some grade inflation going on here.
Veach risked losing him for a 5th round pick. Seems that Veach may not see him as a premier talent in his own right.
Again - I've never said that he isn't a good fit for this system. I think he'll be productive here.
I just don't think he's this all-world talent he's being painted as. I think he's very clearly a 3rd round sort of talent in an ordinary draft and depending on how these big money WR contracts work out, you may see someone EXACTLY like him in the 3rd next year.
He's just a hell of a lot more fungible than is being portrayed around here, IMO. I've seen folks saying he'll be our #1 wideout this year or that in 2-3 years we'll be building our offense around him. Man, if that's the case, we're in trouble. Because that's just not who he is.
He's a good complementary weapon. That's a fine use of the pick if he works out. But he's not some heist in the mid-2nd. That's a big ol' chunk of draft capital we used on him.
DJ clearly knew what he was talking about. [Reply]
Ok, so now that CEH is officially dead in my mind I'm now wondering what's going on with Skyy Moore!?
Thought this guy was going to be our Randall Cobb or Tyler Lockett, what's up with him?
7 REC on 14 TGTS for 104 Yards w/ the best QB in the game, and seemingly being replaced on SPT by Toney.
George Pickens and Nik Bonito were in that draft pocket and would be looking pretty solid as Chiefs rather than Skyy Moore and Brian Cook about now. [Reply]
I think we're grossly overthinking it. Not all rookies are stars on day 1. Some take a bit to get going. Some never do, but it's far too early for this shit.
I think I've iterated how I feel about draft picks before in relation to expectations, but...
Round 1 - Starter or significant contributor in year 1 and certainly starter in year 2.
Round 2 - Contributor in year 1 and starter or significant contributor year 2, starter by year 3. I normally expect RB, IOL, and S taken in round 2 to project more as Round 1 at other positions.
Round 3 - Contributor by year 2 and starter or significant contributor year 3. I normally expect RB, IOL, and S taken in round 3 to project more as Round 2 at other positions.
The rest you hope can give you anything beyond special teams and reserve status.
This helps keep me semi-grounded in my expectations.
I don't expect a lot from Skyy this year other than being a contributor. Next year he needs to step up into a Hardman role.
I would normally expect a lot from Cook this year, but he's behind entrenched veterans that are playing well. Cook should take over as a starter next year for Thornhill.
Calm your titties boys, it's early.
Did most of us prefer the skillset of Pickens to Moore? Yes. Should we continually use that as the barometer for Moore? I don't think so. Not getting Pickens could be a gross miscalculation by Veach and he settled. It might not be.
Sure, it doesn't look wonderful yet but let's see what Moore develops into by this time next year then gauge the pick. Those of you that despised the pick when it happened have your ammo for now, but may not always have it. He could become a very good player. Chances are, he's a movable piece that is primarily a slot guy and those guys (cough, Edleman, cough, Welker, cough, Renfrow, etc) can be extremely valuable. [Reply]
Originally Posted by kccrow:
I think we're grossly overthinking it. Not all rookies are stars on day 1. Some take a bit to get going. Some never do, but it's far too early for this shit.
I think I've iterated how I feel about draft picks before in relation to expectations, but...
Round 1 - Starter or significant contributor in year 1 and certainly starter in year 2.
Round 2 - Contributor in year 1 and starter or significant contributor year 2, starter by year 3. I normally expect RB, IOL, and S taken in round 2 to project more as Round 1 at other positions.
Round 3 - Contributor by year 2 and starter or significant contributor year 3. I normally expect RB, IOL, and S taken in round 3 to project more as Round 2 at other positions.
The rest you hope can give you anything beyond special teams and reserve status.
This helps keep me semi-grounded in my expectations.
I don't expect a lot from Skyy this year other than being a contributor. Next year he needs to step up into a Hardman role.
I would normally expect a lot from Cook this year, but he's behind entrenched veterans that are playing well. Cook should take over as a starter next year for Thornhill.
Calm your titties boys, it's early.
Did most of us prefer the skillset of Pickens to Moore? Yes. Should we continually use that as the barometer for Moore? I don't think so. Not getting Pickens could be a gross miscalculation by Veach and he settled. It might not be.
Sure, it doesn't look wonderful yet but let's see what Moore develops into by this time next year then gauge the pick. Those of you that despised the pick when it happened have your ammo for now, but may not always have it. He could become a very good player. Chances are, he's a movable piece that is primarily a slot guy and those guys (cough, Edleman, cough, Welker, cough, Renfrow, etc) can be extremely valuable.
Well, I would say as valuable as those guys can be, they don't usually require a 2nd round pick to find them. [Reply]
Originally Posted by kccrow:
I think we're grossly overthinking it. Not all rookies are stars on day 1. Some take a bit to get going. Some never do, but it's far too early for this shit.
I think I've iterated how I feel about draft picks before in relation to expectations, but...
Round 1 - Starter or significant contributor in year 1 and certainly starter in year 2.
Round 2 - Contributor in year 1 and starter or significant contributor year 2, starter by year 3. I normally expect RB, IOL, and S taken in round 2 to project more as Round 1 at other positions.
Round 3 - Contributor by year 2 and starter or significant contributor year 3. I normally expect RB, IOL, and S taken in round 3 to project more as Round 2 at other positions.
The rest you hope can give you anything beyond special teams and reserve status.
This helps keep me semi-grounded in my expectations.
I don't expect a lot from Skyy this year other than being a contributor. Next year he needs to step up into a Hardman role.
I would normally expect a lot from Cook this year, but he's behind entrenched veterans that are playing well. Cook should take over as a starter next year for Thornhill.
Calm your titties boys, it's early.
Did most of us prefer the skillset of Pickens to Moore? Yes. Should we continually use that as the barometer for Moore? I don't think so. Not getting Pickens could be a gross miscalculation by Veach and he settled. It might not be.
Sure, it doesn't look wonderful yet but let's see what Moore develops into by this time next year then gauge the pick. Those of you that despised the pick when it happened have your ammo for now, but may not always have it. He could become a very good player. Chances are, he's a movable piece that is primarily a slot guy and those guys (cough, Edleman, cough, Welker, cough, Renfrow, etc) can be extremely valuable.
If someone asks why this guy 'fell' to us at 54? That's why - you just don't need to be taking guys with that kind of ceiling in the 2nd round. They're system dependent players and you can 'build' one instead of pay retail for him.
Skyy Moore belongs on an NFL roster. He has a future in this league.
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
{cough} 7th round pick {cough} UDFA {coughcough} 5th round pick {cough}
If someone asks why this guy 'fell' to us at 54? That's why - you just don't need to be taking guys with that kind of ceiling in the 2nd round. They're system dependent players and you can 'build' one instead of pay retail for him.
Skyy Moore belongs on an NFL roster. He has a future in this league.
Originally Posted by kccrow:
I think we're grossly overthinking it. Not all rookies are stars on day 1. Some take a bit to get going. Some never do, but it's far too early for this shit.
I think I've iterated how I feel about draft picks before in relation to expectations, but...
Round 1 - Starter or significant contributor in year 1 and certainly starter in year 2.
Round 2 - Contributor in year 1 and starter or significant contributor year 2, starter by year 3. I normally expect RB, IOL, and S taken in round 2 to project more as Round 1 at other positions.
Round 3 - Contributor by year 2 and starter or significant contributor year 3. I normally expect RB, IOL, and S taken in round 3 to project more as Round 2 at other positions.
The rest you hope can give you anything beyond special teams and reserve status.
This helps keep me semi-grounded in my expectations.
I don't expect a lot from Skyy this year other than being a contributor. Next year he needs to step up into a Hardman role.
I would normally expect a lot from Cook this year, but he's behind entrenched veterans that are playing well. Cook should take over as a starter next year for Thornhill.
Calm your titties boys, it's early.
Did most of us prefer the skillset of Pickens to Moore? Yes. Should we continually use that as the barometer for Moore? I don't think so. Not getting Pickens could be a gross miscalculation by Veach and he settled. It might not be.
Sure, it doesn't look wonderful yet but let's see what Moore develops into by this time next year then gauge the pick. Those of you that despised the pick when it happened have your ammo for now, but may not always have it. He could become a very good player. Chances are, he's a movable piece that is primarily a slot guy and those guys (cough, Edleman, cough, Welker, cough, Renfrow, etc) can be extremely valuable.
I agree, this is the correct way to look at recently drafted players.
However, I think there's something to be said about giving him some touches to build his confidence. He has plenty of time to grow into something here but I'd like him to feel like he's making progress going into next season. I'd like to see him and Toney get some plays once it seems we've sealed the games moving forward. Also, how about giving ROJO a couple balls also!? [Reply]
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
{cough} 7th round pick {cough} UDFA {coughcough} 5th round pick {cough}
If someone asks why this guy 'fell' to us at 54? That's why - you just don't need to be taking guys with that kind of ceiling in the 2nd round. They're system-dependent players and you can 'build' one instead of pay retail for him.
Skyy Moore belongs on an NFL roster. He has a future in this league.
He wasn't a 2nd round caliber prospect.
He was absolutely a 2nd round prospect, whether you want to admit it or not. His skill set and production were easily as good as Rondale Moore, Elijah Moore, KJ Hamler, D'Wayne Eskridge, and so on. That is where receivers just like him have gone in the draft. You could argue he was better, as a prospect than several of those players. The simple fact that YOU personally did not like him has no bearing on his draft prospect status.
Could it end up that several of those players, including Moore, do not end up worth 2nd round picks and it changes the landscape of selecting those types that high in the future? I think it very well could.
If I were to look at it from a GM perspective, it would be difficult to select a player in the 1st or 2nd round that you cannot project outside with relative ease. Several of those guys I listed above, and many more over the past few years, don't project outside very well. I thought Moore was a fringe yes though. He has just enough size and his ability to beat press off the snap was really good. That said, this is where I think you have the most leverage in your argument.
We both liked Jalen Tolbert in the 2nd. He went in the late 3rd. He hasn't really played much at all for the Cowboys. You screamed for Calvin Austin, who I didn't view as an outside option at all, and he's been on IR all year. I mean, it's not a perfect science. If it were, then maybe we should have taken Romeo Doubs in the 2nd.
In any event, I'm not convinced in any way that Moore's lack of production and playing time is related to his physical abilities. Reid doesn't play guys that don't know the playbook. I think it may be a mental thing, much more so than we may know. I'm convinced we need to give this kid some time.
I also think some of it is that he "likely" was specifically targeted to replace Hardman in 2023 and the Chiefs aren't going to take a lot of those snaps from Hardman right now.
I also think there's a specific reason Toney was brought in for 2023. If I'm gazing into my crystal ball, I think the WR room is going to change again somewhat. We all know, Veach included, that MVS isn't worth keeping on that contract and I think he's released. I'm guessing:
1. JuJu is retained as the #1 on a long-term deal
2. Toney is your #2 opposite JuJu.
3. Moore takes Hardman's role at the slot
4. Watson is retained as the #4
5. Draft Pick
6. Ross or low-key FA.
As for your argument about building a player, yes I agree. I think if you're looking specifically for a slot WR, then you can get that type in the 3rd, 4th, or 5th round and develop him. I thought Danny Gray was a build-a-slot guy you could get in the 4th. Turns out he went as a comp 3rd. Austin would have been nice in that realm. [Reply]
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut: {cough} 7th round pick {cough} UDFA {coughcough} 5th round pick {cough}
If someone asks why this guy 'fell' to us at 54? That's why - you just don't need to be taking guys with that kind of ceiling in the 2nd round. They're system dependent players and you can 'build' one instead of pay retail for him.
Skyy Moore belongs on an NFL roster. He has a future in this league.
He wasn't a 2nd round caliber prospect.
I know "slot receiver" has become a dirty term, but you're telling me you wouldn't have given up a 54th pick for any of those? I mean maybe Renfrow I guess. Those are 2nd round caliber prospects in my eyes!
I might be alone here and I guess it fits with your "complimentary piece" rather than a WR1, but I'd consider a low-ish 2nd RD pick as a fair investment in that sort of role. Perhaps the Moore pick becomes more palatable if we did have that established WR1? [Reply]
Originally Posted by kccrow:
He was absolutely a 2nd round prospect, whether you want to admit it or not. His skill set and production were easily as good as Rondale Moore, Elijah Moore, KJ Hamler, D'Wayne Eskridge, and so on. That is where receivers just like him have gone in the draft. You could argue he was better, as a prospect than several of those players. The simple fact that YOU personally did not like him has no bearing on his draft prospect status.
Could it end up that several of those players, including Moore, do not end up worth 2nd round picks and it changes the landscape of selecting those types that high in the future? I think it very well could.
If I were to look at it from a GM perspective, it would be difficult to select a player in the 1st or 2nd round that you cannot project outside with relative ease. Several of those guys I listed above, and many more over the past few years, don't project outside very well. I thought Moore was a fringe yes though. He has just enough size and his ability to beat press off the snap was really good. That said, this is where I think you have the most leverage in your argument.
We both liked Jalen Tolbert in the 2nd. He went in the late 3rd. He hasn't really played much at all for the Cowboys. You screamed for Calvin Austin, who I didn't view as an outside option at all, and he's been on IR all year. I mean, it's not a perfect science. If it were, then maybe we should have taken Romeo Doubs in the 2nd.
In any event, I'm not convinced in any way that Moore's lack of production and playing time is related to his physical abilities. Reid doesn't play guys that don't know the playbook. I think it may be a mental thing, much more so than we may know. I'm convinced we need to give this kid some time.
I also think some of it is that he "likely" was specifically targeted to replace Hardman in 2023 and the Chiefs aren't going to take a lot of those snaps from Hardman right now.
I also think there's a specific reason Toney was brought in for 2023. If I'm gazing into my crystal ball, I think the WR room is going to change again somewhat. We all know, Veach included, that MVS isn't worth keeping on that contract and I think he's released. I'm guessing:
1. JuJu is retained as the #1 on a long-term deal
2. Toney is your #2 opposite JuJu.
3. Moore takes Hardman's role at the slot
4. Watson is retained as the #4
5. Draft Pick
6. Ross or low-key FA.
As for your argument about building a player, yes I agree. I think if you're looking specifically for a slot WR, then you can get that type in the 3rd, 4th, or 5th round and develop him. I thought Danny Gray was a build-a-slot guy you could get in the 4th. Turns out he went as a comp 3rd. Austin would have been nice in that realm.
All of this is fine, but my only nagging concern is that I thought Moore was selected because of his elite route running? Since he's been with the team, however, I've seen/heard 3 references now to him not producing because he doesn't fully understanding the playbook or run the best routes yet. [Reply]
Originally Posted by kccrow:
He was absolutely a 2nd round prospect, whether you want to admit it or not. His skill set and production were easily as good as Rondale Moore, Elijah Moore, KJ Hamler, D'Wayne Eskridge, and so on. That is where receivers just like him have gone in the draft. You could argue he was better, as a prospect than several of those players. The simple fact that YOU personally did not like him has no bearing on his draft prospect status.
...
I just have a very hard time saying that the 13th WR drafted should've been one of the first 60 players selected. Do you truly think the WR pool was THAT good?
Or is it more likely that the insanity of the WR market in FA led to teams reaching on WRs to avoid having to pay them as free agents?
And again, the whole "Reid doesn't play guys that don't know the playbook" argument has been beaten to death at this point and frankly, I think it was largely dispelled BEFORE Toney was getting significant snaps with a week on the roster.
After? Man, that argument is simply dead in the water. It was hanging by a very think thread 3 weeks ago - that thread has been cut. If you can play, Andy will play you. And Mahomes will throw to you.
I also don't think he was drafted to replace Hardman - they're simply not similar players. There's no way Moore, who's skill set and experience demonstrates that he's a short area slant/curl player, should be taking the drag, dig, post and corner routes that Hardman is running. [Reply]
