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Nzoner's Game Room>Chiefs defensive discussion
O.city 08:17 AM 09-16-2021
So I understand the Browns are probably the best run team in the league. Do a great job scheme wise, have talent etc.

But why do the Chiefs struggle so much vs the run?

It's been years now. Whats the deal?
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Chris Meck 08:29 AM 09-16-2021
Well, it's been many things at different times.

Sunday, we really missed Clark, HB, and Gay. We had some inexperience and new players getting their first game action in the scheme. Bolton is going to be very good, but was a bit slow in play recognition in the first half. Not surprising, as it's his first game in the scheme and at real NFL game speed. HB's football smarts are off the charts, and Clark while not performing to his contract, has been a very good edge setting run defender. Gay's speed should make a difference too.

Historically, it's been poor gap discipline up front, and mediocre linebacker play. We saw that in the first half, but we saw it improve dramatically in the second half.
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Direckshun 08:33 AM 09-16-2021
A couple things are working against them.

1. Frank Clark is an excellent run defender, and was missing in action.
2. Half the remaining DEs are still learning how to play DE.
3. Other DL are legit liabilities against the run.

Frank Clark has lost, seemingly, all of his burst off the edge, but he's still big, strong, smart DE who shuts down his edge to a Justin Houston-esque degree. Missing him is going to hurt your run defense. Hopefully he's back soon.

Of the remaining DEs, only Okafor and Danna have any idea what they're doing in their run responsibilities. You'll notice the Browns mostly challenged the Chiefs off tackle, where Chris Jones and Joshua Kaindoh have no earthly clue what they're doing or where they need to be going. Hopefully that situation rectifies itself by December, because we're going to have to beat some combination of Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Tennessee, or Baltimore in the AFC playoffs.

Lastly, the hardest problem to solve is that some of the DL we have simply aren't the run defense horses we need them to be, in particular Okafor and Wharton. I don't know what Spags was thinking having Wharton on the DL in a goalline stand (with Ben Niemann backing him up, no less). They ran right at him and washed him. Okafor plays the position at minimal competence and not much else. Danna is probably the smartest run defending DE we have on the roster other than Clark but his lack of size makes him movable in ways that Clark simply isn't. And Khalen Saunders simply doesn't hold up against smashmouth football.

There are other answers, such as the return of Gay, the continued progression of Nick Bolton who already looks pretty competent, and the return of Mathieu.

By the end of the season, I bet we'll be a bottom third run defense team, but if we can get these elements in place and see some progression without seeing much injury, we can hold up enough against the run in January to return to the Super Bowl. But we absolutely must see progression and avoid injury, because I don't want to have to bet on Baker/Roethlisberger/Tannehill/Jackson throwing a late INT to give the game away.
[Reply]
louie aguiar 08:36 AM 09-16-2021
Our depth at DE is pretty thin. Kaindoh in particular isn’t ready to contribute much yet. We missed Frank Clark in the run game.
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Direckshun 08:41 AM 09-16-2021
Originally Posted by louie aguiar:
Our depth at DE is pretty thin. Kaindoh in particular isn’t ready to contribute much yet. We missed Frank Clark in the run game.
[mournful Tim Ward sounds]
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Danguardace 08:46 AM 09-16-2021
Be interested to see how the chiefs average DL weight stacks up against other teams in the league. Even our big guys seem small with the exception of Jones who isn't a great run stopper. Our heaviest DL is Saunders at 324 (chiefs.com). Teams like the Colts and Browns just seem to target the Chiefs Run D.
[Reply]
Chris Meck 08:48 AM 09-16-2021
Originally Posted by Direckshun:
A couple things are working against them.

1. Frank Clark is an excellent run defender, and was missing in action.
2. Half the remaining DEs are still learning how to play DE.
3. Other DL are legit liabilities against the run.

Frank Clark has lost, seemingly, all of his burst off the edge, but he's still big, strong, smart DE who shuts down his edge to a Justin Houston-esque degree. Missing him is going to hurt your run defense. Hopefully he's back soon.

Of the remaining DEs, only Okafor and Danna have any idea what they're doing in their run responsibilities. You'll notice the Browns mostly challenged the Chiefs off tackle, where Chris Jones and Joshua Kaindoh have no earthly clue what they're doing or where they need to be going. Hopefully that situation rectifies itself by December, because we're going to have to beat some combination of Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Tennessee, or Baltimore in the AFC playoffs.

Lastly, the hardest problem to solve is that some of the DL we have simply aren't the run defense horses we need them to be, in particular Okafor and Wharton. I don't know what Spags was thinking having Wharton on the DL in a goalline stand (with Ben Niemann backing him up, no less). They ran right at him and washed him. Okafor plays the position at minimal competence and not much else. Danna is probably the smartest run defending DE we have on the roster other than Clark but his lack of size makes him movable in ways that Clark simply isn't. And Khalen Saunders simply doesn't hold up against smashmouth football.

There are other answers, such as the return of Gay, the continued progression of Nick Bolton who already looks pretty competent, and the return of Mathieu.

By the end of the season, I bet we'll be a bottom third run defense team, but if we can get these elements in place and see some progression without seeing much injury, we can hold up enough against the run in January to return to the Super Bowl. But we absolutely must see progression and avoid injury, because I don't want to have to bet on Baker/Roethlisberger/Tannehill/Jackson throwing a late INT to give the game away.
I don't disagree except that Saunders very nearly had Hunt for a loss on that touchdown run in goal-line. He JUST missed him. He had excellent penetration though. Almost ain't good enough, but just saying.
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Gary Cooper 08:48 AM 09-16-2021
I'd say linebacker play. Since Derrick Johnson, we haven't had a strong MLB. He also had Houston next to him. Houston was great against the run. The Chiefs have been weak at that position for years. The Super Bowl team had arguably the weakest linebacker group of any championship team in history.

We haven't seen this year's team yet when it's healthy. Gay and Clark will obviously help in the run game.
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DJ's left nut 08:49 AM 09-16-2021
It's been frustrating for awhile. With guys like Saunders and Nnadi in the middle and now Jones on the edge, they have more than enough mass to keep a line from being able to push through them to the LBs.

But I also don't think last week was a fair test. 1st - the Browns are just damn good at running the football. So right away you've got a matchup issue. But then you also add in having young guys stepping into roles they haven't done as much of with Jones kicking outside and someone like Wharton being asked to man the middle more. Or Danna being out there for more snaps than usual due to Clark's absence.

You also have run-fit issues with a new LB corps that's also missing its fastest player and is starting a rookie.

In the past it's been personnel and desire. The LBs seemed completely lost on their run fits, Jones was splitting gaps instead of stacking and Saunders wasn't ready for prime time. Or Houston/Ford were mailing in run downs. But they have the personnel now to be at least adequate and likely more than that. They just had some new players in new roles while going against one of, if not the best, 'conventional' (i.e. not the Ravens) running teams in the league.
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Dunerdr 08:51 AM 09-16-2021
Well our best edge setter was out, our most athletic line backer was out, and our best player in the secondary against the run was out. Historically weve been terrible partly due to talent and party due to scheme. I dont think theyve dedicated themselves to stopping the run.
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Chris Meck 08:51 AM 09-16-2021
There's also the fact that Cleveland has built that team to run the ball on anyone, with a stout line and two elite RB's.

They get paid too, and they'll do what they did in the first half to a lot of football teams this season.

Not discounting how bad KC was in the first half, but they tightened up quite a bit in the second half. That tells me it was a lot of little things that were corrected and not so much just a talent deficiency.
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Chris Meck 08:52 AM 09-16-2021
Originally Posted by Dunerdr:
Well our best edge setter was out, our most athletic line backer was out, and our best player in the secondary against the run was out. Historically weve been terrible partly due to talent and party due to scheme. I dont think theyve dedicated themselves to stopping the run.
We do party to that scheme, don't we baby? YEAH! WOOO!
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DJ's left nut 08:55 AM 09-16-2021
Originally Posted by Danguardace:
Be interested to see how the chiefs average DL weight stacks up against other teams in the league. Even our big guys seem small with the exception of Jones who isn't a great run stopper. Our heaviest DL is Saunders at 324 (chiefs.com). Teams like the Colts and Browns just seem to target the Chiefs Run D.
Dude.

A front four stack of Jones - Saunders - Nnadi - Clark would be pretty damn big. That's an average weight of about 300 lbs. And Jones/Clark are pretty long guys to boot so they're hard to seal off.

The average NFL DT weighs around 310 lbs - both of our guys are at least that heavy. The average NFL DE looks to be around 270 lbs - Jones is well north of that and Clark's just a hair south of it.

Size isn't the problem on this line.
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O.city 08:57 AM 09-16-2021
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
It's been frustrating for awhile. With guys like Saunders and Nnadi in the middle and now Jones on the edge, they have more than enough mass to keep a line from being able to push through them to the LBs.

But I also don't think last week was a fair test. 1st - the Browns are just damn good at running the football. So right away you've got a matchup issue. But then you also add in having young guys stepping into roles they haven't done as much of with Jones kicking outside and someone like Wharton being asked to man the middle more. Or Danna being out there for more snaps than usual due to Clark's absence.

You also have run-fit issues with a new LB corps that's also missing its fastest player and is starting a rookie.

In the past it's been personnel and desire. The LBs seemed completely lost on their run fits, Jones was splitting gaps instead of stacking and Saunders wasn't ready for prime time. Or Houston/Ford were mailing in run downs. But they have the personnel now to be at least adequate and likely more than that. They just had some new players in new roles while going against one of, if not the best, 'conventional' (i.e. not the Ravens) running teams in the league.
I can get on board with this.

Mathieu doesn't really mean much vs the run. He's good but that's not really the issue.

I think Clark and Gay missing are an issue for sure, but after a few rewatches, I don't think Danna is an every down type of DE. Now he had to do it because of injury, but without Clark, they're thin there. I still can't figure out why they didn't attack that spot a bit more.
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FlaChief58 08:58 AM 09-16-2021
At this point you have to believe that it's almost intentional. Teams know they can run on us and so they do. Ground and pound works against a lot of teams, but not against a team that can score in the blink of an eye from anywhere on the field. I think AR and co concentrate more on stopping the big downfield plays and try to limit the run as best they can. As frustrating as it is for us fans, when's the last time a run first team beat us?
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