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The Lounge>Whoo Hoo, electric cars?
ROYC75 09:55 PM 11-23-2021
I have no clue if this is correct, shit is over my pay scale but it friggin makes sense. Read on with an open mind!

Got this from my buddy Mark Reed... an interesting take on Electric Cars.

ďAs an engineer I love the electric vehicle technology However, I have been troubled for a longtime by the fact that the electrical energy to keep the batteries charged has to come from the grid, and that means more power generation and a huge increase in the distribution infrastructure. Whether generated from coal, gas, oil, wind or sun, installed generation capacity is limited.

A friend sent me the following that says it very well. You should all take a look at this short article.

IF ELECTRIC CARS DO NOT USE GASOLINE, THEY WILL NOT PARTICIPATE IN PAYING A GASOLINE TAX ON EVERY GALLON THAT IS SOLD FOR AUTOMOBILES, WHICH WAS ENACTED SOME YEARS AGO TO HELP TO MAINTAIN OUR ROADS AND BRIDGES. THEY WILL USE THE ROADS, BUT WILL NOT PAY FOR THEIR MAINTENANCE!

In case you were thinking of buying hybrid or an electric car...

Ever since the advent of electric cars, the REAL cost per mile of those things has never been discussed. All you ever heard was the mpg in terms of gasoline, with nary a mention of the cost of electricity to run it. This is the first article I've ever seen and it tells the story pretty much as I expected it to.

Electricity has to be one of the least efficient ways to power things, yet they're being shoved down our throats. Glad somebody finally put engineering and math to paper.

At a neighborhood BBQ I was talking to a neighbor, a BC Hydro Executive. I asked him how that renewable thing was doing. He laughed, then got serious.

If you really intend to adopt electric vehicles, he pointed out, you had to face certain realities. For example, a home charging system for a Tesla requires 75 amp service. The average house is equipped with 100 amp service. On our small street (approximately 25 homes), the electrical infrastructure would be unable to carry more than three houses with a single Tesla each. For even half the homes to have electric vehicles, the system would be wildly over-loaded.

This is the elephant in the room with electric vehicles. Our residential infrastructure cannot bear the load. So, as our genius elected officials promote this nonsense, not only are we being urged to buy these things and replace our reliable, cheap generating systems with expensive new windmills and solar cells, but we will also have to renovate our entire delivery system! This later "investment" will not be revealed until we're so far down this dead end road that it will be presented with an 'OOPS...!' and a shrug.

If you want to argue with a green person over cars that are eco-friendly, just read the following. Note: If you ARE a green person, read it anyway. It's enlightening.

Eric test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors and he writes, "For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine." Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. So, the range including the 9-gallon gas tank and the 16 kwh battery is approximately 270 miles.

It will take you 4.5 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph. Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours. In a typical road trip your average speed (including charging time) would be 20 mph.

According to General Motors, the Volt battery holds 16 kwh of electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery. The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned, so I looked up what I pay for electricity.

I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kwh. 16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery. $18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery. Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine that gets only 32 mpg. $3.19 per gallon divided by 32 Mpg = $0.10 per mile.

The gasoline powered car costs about $25,000 while the Volt costs $46,000 plus. So the Canadian Government wants loyal Canadians not to do the math, but simply pay twice as much for a car, that costs more than seven times as much to run, and takes three times longer to drive across the country.

WAKE UP NORTH AMERICA!!!!!!!
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MagicHef 03:58 PM 11-24-2021
Originally Posted by eDave:
6 seat truck? Is that like an Expedition with a truck bed attached.
Crew cab with a bench front seat. Every large truck is available with this setup, including the gas and diesel F-150s. Just not the electric one yet.
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oldman 04:19 PM 11-24-2021
I'm all for EVs now that we are moving forward to strengthen the electric grid and technology will advance. Look at the cell you were carrying 20 years ago vs. the one you're carrying today. Advances will be made. As far as the "extra tax" goes, you'll just be replacing the tax you currently pay on gas. The only thing that keeps me from one today is the range. We drive to Denver a couple times a year and there's no way to make it there without staying in Colby or some other tiny burg. I'm out!

Just a question for those of you that do drive one. Some of the current models say they get 275-300 miles on a full charge. How much does running the AC, radio, headlights, etc. cut into that range?
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Chitownchiefsfan 04:24 PM 11-24-2021
Originally Posted by oldman:
I'm all for EVs now that we are moving forward to strengthen the electric grid and technology will advance. Look at the cell you were carrying 20 years ago vs. the one you're carrying today. Advances will be made. As far as the "extra tax" goes, you'll just be replacing the tax you currently pay on gas. The only thing that keeps me from one today is the range. We drive to Denver a couple times a year and there's no way to make it there without staying in Colby or some other tiny burg. I'm out!

Just a question for those of you that do drive one. Some of the current models say they get 275-300 miles on a full charge. How much does running the AC, radio, headlights, etc. cut into that range?

I don't own one but it was my understanding that those things actually run off a different battery system. But someone can let me know if I'm wrong.
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ScareCrowe 04:41 PM 11-24-2021
Originally Posted by Chitownchiefsfan:
I don't own one but it was my understanding that those things actually run off a different battery system. But someone can let me know if I'm wrong.
I'm pretty sure you're wrong. First of all it just doesn't make sense to design it that way. Why would you allow a vehicle to run out of power while leaving a battery charged that is only for Heat/AC. You would always be better to have all batteries available to drive the car & steal power off them for the HVAC. Also I was pretty sure I had recently read an article that this very thing was an issue with EV's.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...fect-ev-range/

Apparently heat is actually the bigger issue as unlike ICE electric motors don't generate much heat. So you basically have to power heat to the vehicle unlike an ICE where heat is a waste byproduct of the engine. Some EV's are apparently going to heat pumps which in essence puts heat at basically equal footing with AC as far as energy consumption. But some of them still use resistance heat which costs considerably more per btu.

With all that said the above article tested a Tesla Model 3. With all HVAC off the vehicle was estimated to get 234 miles per charge, with the HVAC set to high (in heat mode) and all heated seats turned on the vehicle was estimated to go 173 miles on a charge. So about 25% less.
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DaFace 05:54 PM 11-24-2021
Originally Posted by oldman:
I'm all for EVs now that we are moving forward to strengthen the electric grid and technology will advance. Look at the cell you were carrying 20 years ago vs. the one you're carrying today. Advances will be made. As far as the "extra tax" goes, you'll just be replacing the tax you currently pay on gas. The only thing that keeps me from one today is the range. We drive to Denver a couple times a year and there's no way to make it there without staying in Colby or some other tiny burg. I'm out!

Just a question for those of you that do drive one. Some of the current models say they get 275-300 miles on a full charge. How much does running the AC, radio, headlights, etc. cut into that range?
Radio, headlights, etc. are essentially zero impact.

AC is a minor impact. Depending on the car and the temperature, I'd guess maybe 10-15%.

Heat is a major impact. Depending on the car and the temperature, I'd guess maybe 20-40%.

Although EV nuts kind of turn their noses up at them, I actually think there's a good argument to be made for a PHEV these days. No, they don't benefit from the low maintenance as much as an EV, but my Rav4 Prime gets ~45 miles per charge, which is more than enough for random trips around town. And when I need to hit the road, that's what the gas engine is for.

That said, the Rav4 Prime gets a lot more range than many of them, so most of them you'll find will be in the 15-25 mile range per charge. That's still enough for most typical commutes but isn't QUITE as easy to live in full EV mode when you're not on a road trip.
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DaFace 05:55 PM 11-24-2021
Originally Posted by Chitownchiefsfan:
I don't own one but it was my understanding that those things actually run off a different battery system. But someone can let me know if I'm wrong.
Typically your cabin lights, radio, headlights, etc. all run off of the 12v battery, but your heat and AC operate off of the EV battery.
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Rain Man 06:04 PM 11-24-2021
Originally Posted by MagicHef:
Crew cab with a bench front seat. Every large truck is available with this setup, including the gas and diesel F-150s. Just not the electric one yet.
Everyone has different needs, but a six-seat need is exactly the opposite of me. I would actually consider buying a one-seat EV, though two would be better. I haven't been in a three-person or more car trip in years.
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2bikemike 06:09 PM 11-24-2021
Originally Posted by DaFace:
Radio, headlights, etc. are essentially zero impact.

AC is a minor impact. Depending on the car and the temperature, I'd guess maybe 10-15%.

Heat is a major impact. Depending on the car and the temperature, I'd guess maybe 20-40%.

Although EV nuts kind of turn their noses up at them, I actually think there's a good argument to be made for a PHEV these days. No, they don't benefit from the low maintenance as much as an EV, but my Rav4 Prime gets ~45 miles per charge, which is more than enough for random trips around town. And when I need to hit the road, that's what the gas engine is for.

That said, the Rav4 Prime gets a lot more range than many of them, so most of them you'll find will be in the 15-25 mile range per charge. That's still enough for most typical commutes but isn't QUITE as easy to live in full EV mode when you're not on a road trip.
We had a POS Nissan Leaf at work. It started out doing ok. But as it got a little older it became worthless. And if you had it out on a cold rainy night you better know where a quick charger was. It sucked the juice right out of those batteries.
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DaFace 06:23 PM 11-24-2021
Originally Posted by 2bikemike:
We had a POS Nissan Leaf at work. It started out doing ok. But as it got a little older it became worthless. And if you had it out on a cold rainy night you better know where a quick charger was. It sucked the juice right out of those batteries.
Yeah, the old Leafs were good pathfinders but pretty impractical for most people. The newer ones will get 150-225 depending on trim level and even that's pretty low by today's standards. They're dirt cheap compared to other options though.
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REDHOTGTO 06:40 PM 11-24-2021
i own a hybrid honda crv, one of the first ones in the usa, it switches back and forth from elec to gas by itself dont know how but its cool. the technology in these cars is fantastic almost drives itself. so anyways these cars make sense in the fact they dont require charging, dont require plugging in and still get 37 mpg. i think these are a lot smarter then total electric cars ever will be, the gas purchases still support the highways and the electric part help with the mileage, i really cant see a downside.
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MagicHef 07:01 PM 11-24-2021
Originally Posted by Rain Man:
Everyone has different needs, but a six-seat need is exactly the opposite of me. I would actually consider buying a one-seat EV, though two would be better. I haven't been in a three-person or more car trip in years.
I need either a 1 seat car or a 6 seat car. For me, 5 seats is exactly as useful as 1 seat.
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philfree 07:32 PM 11-24-2021
Originally Posted by DaFace:
How did we handle the increased power needs of homes being built with central AC systems?

If you're worried about buying things from communist countries, you're gonna have a bad time.
I have no doubt that we will find away forward because that's what we do as a species. We adapt. That doesn't mean that we won't have problems along the way. Like the ability to generate enough power or environmental damage that is unforeseen.


I struggle with outsourcing so much of our needs to other countries. Depending on these other countries for things we will need like lithium is kind of like depending on OPEC. And some of these countries like China/CCP are our enemies.
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mr. tegu 08:05 PM 11-24-2021
How do hybrids work? The default fuel is electric and gas doesnít get used until you are low on charge? And if thatís the case, is it possible your gas goes bad sitting in the tank? I guess Iím uncertain on benefits of hybrids since they are more expensive but you still have to buy gas and then are still harming the environment.
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DaFace 08:44 PM 11-24-2021
Originally Posted by mr. tegu:
How do hybrids work? The default fuel is electric and gas doesnít get used until you are low on charge? And if thatís the case, is it possible your gas goes bad sitting in the tank? I guess Iím uncertain on benefits of hybrids since they are more expensive but you still have to buy gas and then are still harming the environment.
A standard hybrid just uses a small battery to capture some of the inefficiencies from things like braking. Functionally they're just a gas car that gets really good mileage.

Plug in hybrids do theoretically have a concern with old gas if you literally never drive it long distances, but I'm not sure why you'd buy one if that's how you planned to use it.
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HemiEd 08:57 PM 11-24-2021
Originally Posted by REDHOTGTO:
i own a hybrid honda crv, one of the first ones in the usa, it switches back and forth from elec to gas by itself dont know how but its cool. the technology in these cars is fantastic almost drives itself. so anyways these cars make sense in the fact they dont require charging, dont require plugging in and still get 37 mpg. i think these are a lot smarter then total electric cars ever will be, the gas purchases still support the highways and the electric part help with the mileage, i really cant see a downside.
Similar to our Prius C, some serious technology involved. It is tiny and gets 52 mpg. I really enjoy the dash display options, lots of choices how you want to view what is going on.
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