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The Lounge>Whoo Hoo, electric cars?
ROYC75 09:55 PM 11-23-2021
I have no clue if this is correct, shit is over my pay scale but it friggin makes sense. Read on with an open mind!

Got this from my buddy Mark Reed... an interesting take on Electric Cars.

ďAs an engineer I love the electric vehicle technology However, I have been troubled for a longtime by the fact that the electrical energy to keep the batteries charged has to come from the grid, and that means more power generation and a huge increase in the distribution infrastructure. Whether generated from coal, gas, oil, wind or sun, installed generation capacity is limited.

A friend sent me the following that says it very well. You should all take a look at this short article.

IF ELECTRIC CARS DO NOT USE GASOLINE, THEY WILL NOT PARTICIPATE IN PAYING A GASOLINE TAX ON EVERY GALLON THAT IS SOLD FOR AUTOMOBILES, WHICH WAS ENACTED SOME YEARS AGO TO HELP TO MAINTAIN OUR ROADS AND BRIDGES. THEY WILL USE THE ROADS, BUT WILL NOT PAY FOR THEIR MAINTENANCE!

In case you were thinking of buying hybrid or an electric car...

Ever since the advent of electric cars, the REAL cost per mile of those things has never been discussed. All you ever heard was the mpg in terms of gasoline, with nary a mention of the cost of electricity to run it. This is the first article I've ever seen and it tells the story pretty much as I expected it to.

Electricity has to be one of the least efficient ways to power things, yet they're being shoved down our throats. Glad somebody finally put engineering and math to paper.

At a neighborhood BBQ I was talking to a neighbor, a BC Hydro Executive. I asked him how that renewable thing was doing. He laughed, then got serious.

If you really intend to adopt electric vehicles, he pointed out, you had to face certain realities. For example, a home charging system for a Tesla requires 75 amp service. The average house is equipped with 100 amp service. On our small street (approximately 25 homes), the electrical infrastructure would be unable to carry more than three houses with a single Tesla each. For even half the homes to have electric vehicles, the system would be wildly over-loaded.

This is the elephant in the room with electric vehicles. Our residential infrastructure cannot bear the load. So, as our genius elected officials promote this nonsense, not only are we being urged to buy these things and replace our reliable, cheap generating systems with expensive new windmills and solar cells, but we will also have to renovate our entire delivery system! This later "investment" will not be revealed until we're so far down this dead end road that it will be presented with an 'OOPS...!' and a shrug.

If you want to argue with a green person over cars that are eco-friendly, just read the following. Note: If you ARE a green person, read it anyway. It's enlightening.

Eric test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors and he writes, "For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine." Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. So, the range including the 9-gallon gas tank and the 16 kwh battery is approximately 270 miles.

It will take you 4.5 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph. Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours. In a typical road trip your average speed (including charging time) would be 20 mph.

According to General Motors, the Volt battery holds 16 kwh of electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery. The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned, so I looked up what I pay for electricity.

I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kwh. 16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery. $18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery. Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine that gets only 32 mpg. $3.19 per gallon divided by 32 Mpg = $0.10 per mile.

The gasoline powered car costs about $25,000 while the Volt costs $46,000 plus. So the Canadian Government wants loyal Canadians not to do the math, but simply pay twice as much for a car, that costs more than seven times as much to run, and takes three times longer to drive across the country.

WAKE UP NORTH AMERICA!!!!!!!
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RedRaider56 07:31 AM 11-24-2021
Originally Posted by HemiEd:
Yeah, history is repeating itself. There are a lot of articles available on the subject that make for some interesting reading.

The power grid issue is real.

We have a hybrid as one of our vehicles and it is nice to get 52 mpg but at the sacrifice of power and comfort.
While the original post is difficult to read, at best, it does have some salient points in it. I Think owning an EV would be nice, but they aren't a viable option for me just yet. The Rivian and the new Ford 150 are making me take a closer look at EVs as an alternative

States are looking at implementing a use tax on EVs/Hybrids based upon miles driven or increasing registration fees, since gasoline tax dollars are not being received from EV drivers.

EVs just aren't ready for the long drives many folks want to take for vacations. Adding 30 - 40 minutes of charging times to my trip, every 250 miles or so, just don't make EVs an attractive alternative for me. There's a reason Tesla put many of its fast charging stations next to coffee shops and bakeries.

Lithium battery disposal - Batteries have a typical life of about 150,000 miles and then have to be replaced. The batteries have to go somewhere. I don't believe they can be recycled and the contents are caustic to the environment.

While EV's tout being zero emission, charging them is not zero emission as most electric grids are powered by coal, natural gas etc.
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HemiEd 07:45 AM 11-24-2021
Originally Posted by RedRaider56:
While the original post is difficult to read, at best, it does have some salient points in it. I Think owning an EV would be nice, but they aren't a viable option for me just yet. The Rivian and the new Ford 150 are making me take a closer look at EVs as an alternative

States are looking at implementing a use tax on EVs/Hybrids based upon miles driven or increasing registration fees, since gasoline tax dollars are not being received from EV drivers.

EVs just aren't ready for the long drives many folks want to take for vacations. Adding 30 - 40 minutes of charging times to my trip, every 250 miles or so, just don't make EVs an attractive alternative for me. There's a reason Tesla put many of its fast charging stations next to coffee shops and bakeries.

Lithium battery disposal - Batteries have a typical life of about 150,000 miles and then have to be replaced. The batteries have to go somewhere. I don't believe they can be recycled and the contents are caustic to the environment.

While EV's tout being zero emission, charging them is not zero emission as most electric grids are powered by coal, natural gas etc.
All good points. We make annual trips to the East Coast and usually do 600 miles a day.

The mining and disposal of the Lithium is something the proponents turn their head an look away. Not happening in their neighborhood.

It is similar to the article I read a while back about the burying of the giant windmill blades that are made of fiberglass. I guess developing a huge grinder for those blades to break them down is something they haven't planned on.
[Reply]
Deberg_1990 07:48 AM 11-24-2021
I would love to test drive one of these bad boys. Tesla Model S Plaid.

0-60 in 1.99 seconds. 200 MPH top speed

https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyl...es-china-march
[Reply]
HC_Chief 08:05 AM 11-24-2021
EVs are cool, with their instant power to the wheel & no drive train. Makes them instantly accelerate, and go stupid fast (if built to do so; see: Tesla S Plaid).

They have a limited range however and infrastructure away from coasts and major population centers simply does not exist. They are not necessarily "better for the environment" either, as the elements required to produce their batteries require massive amounts of strip mining, plus once they are "dead", they require containment else they are absolutely toxic to the environment (they are full of carcinogens and other deadly compounds).

CO2 is a boogeyman.
[Reply]
stevieray 08:14 AM 11-24-2021

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notorious 08:22 AM 11-24-2021
Originally Posted by Rain Man:
I opened this thread just to read the comments.

Actually, that's why I open any thread, but you get what I mean.
You are my favorite comment reader on CP.
[Reply]
displacedinMN 08:28 AM 11-24-2021
I posted an article once from and electric company. The grid cannot handle all cars to electric. We have to invest billions to get it up to snuff.
[Reply]
loochy 08:42 AM 11-24-2021
Originally Posted by ROYC75:
I have no clue if this is correct, shit is over my pay scale but it friggin makes sense. Read on with an open mind!
Over your pay scale? It's some basic math....





Originally Posted by ROYC75:
I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kwh. 16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery. $18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery. Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine that gets only 32 mpg. $3.19 per gallon divided by 32 Mpg = $0.10 per mile.

:-) What in the actual F kind of electric contract does this guy have? I'm at 10.6 CENTS per kWh! What a moron....




Originally Posted by ROYC75:
IF ELECTRIC CARS DO NOT USE GASOLINE, THEY WILL NOT PARTICIPATE IN PAYING A GASOLINE TAX ON EVERY GALLON THAT IS SOLD FOR AUTOMOBILES, WHICH WAS ENACTED SOME YEARS AGO TO HELP TO MAINTAIN OUR ROADS AND BRIDGES. THEY WILL USE THE ROADS, BUT WILL NOT PAY FOR THEIR MAINTENANCE!


Also, don't worry about road taxes not getting paid. They'll find a way to get their money.
[Reply]
loochy 08:45 AM 11-24-2021
Originally Posted by displacedinMN:
I posted an article once from and electric company. The grid cannot handle all cars to electric. We have to invest billions to get it up to snuff.

Dude, the grid couldn't even handle a cold spell here in Texas last winter and it can barely hold up to air conditioning in the summer.
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Bugeater 09:22 AM 11-24-2021
Originally Posted by eDave:
All those things are considered "progressive". And that's why you can't separate it from politics. People also fear change and things they don't understand.
Nah...true progressives favor the elimination of private automobile ownership and a transition to public transportation. And yes, that scares the hell out of me.
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DaFace 09:29 AM 11-24-2021
It's amazing how many misunderstandings there are about electric cars. I have 1.5 of them (one is a PHEV), and they're great. Not sure I have the time and interest to correct everything in this thread, but a few to start with:

They're more expensive than gas cars!
Partially true. They're generally a little more expensive than the nearest equivalents in terms of MSRP, but the tax credits bring them down to the range that is comparable for the most part. (Yes, you can argue about whether tax credits should exist if you want, but be sure to debate whether there should be subsidies that keep our gas prices low, too.) And operating costs are far lower for EVs - there's just no argument here. Our Leaf is about to hit 50k miles, and so far my maintenance costs are about $250 plus a set of tires. I pay $0.12/kwh for electricity peak times, which means that I pay about $5 for 150 miles of range (and it's about half of that in reality, as I mostly charge overnight when my pricing is lower). Articles that EVs are more expensive to operate often use the cost of public chargers as their metric. If you aren't able to charge at home most of the time, and EV probably isn't a great option for you. That's not a secret.

There's no rural infrastructure!
Partially true, but it really just depends on your lifestyle. I have personally charged a car at a public charger around five times in the past three years, and it was mostly just because I was at a location that made it convenient to add a little extra range. If you road trip constantly, then sure, the lack of infrastructure is a problem (and that's not unique to people in rural areas). But for most people, you just charge at home, drive to work, and repeat. Now, is it inconvenient to make road trips? Sure. But it's pretty easy to have at least one EV in your household that you use around town if you have a gas car for road trips.

They're bad for the environment!
Mostly false. There's literally no product that we can create that will have zero environmental impact, but it's just not true that EVs are overall worse than gas cars. They're a little worse when it comes to the manufacturing process, but it's nowhere near as bad as people make it out to be. And sure, the power grid isn't perfectly clean, but 1) it's getting cleaner every day and 2) it's pretty obvious that millions of cars hurt air quality a shit ton more than a few coal-fired plants. Also, we're starting to figure out how to recycle li-ion batteries, so the biggest knock on the manufacturing process is getting better as well.

The power grid can't handle it!
False. Or at least false for all practical purposes. This is like saying that gas cars should never have been made because the infrastructure was built for horse-drawn carriages. Sure, if we went from zero EVs to every single car in the country being an EV overnight, this might be a valid criticism. But the power grid is being updated every day whether or not EVs exist. As there's more demand, we build more supply. Welcome to Econ 101. Also, many electric companies love EVs because they can charge overnight when there's plenty of excess capacity at power plants.

If you don't want an EV, don't buy an EV. I don't care. But beyond people who can't charge at home and range on road trips, a vast majority of the concerns people have about them are unfounded.
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bsp4444 09:43 AM 11-24-2021
Originally Posted by HC_Chief:
EVs are cool, with their instant power to the wheel & no drive train. Makes them instantly accelerate, and go stupid fast (if built to do so; see: Tesla S Plaid).

They have a limited range however and infrastructure away from coasts and major population centers simply does not exist. They are not necessarily "better for the environment" either, as the elements required to produce their batteries require massive amounts of strip mining, plus once they are "dead", they require containment else they are absolutely toxic to the environment (they are full of carcinogens and other deadly compounds).

CO2 is a boogeyman.
Lithium can be obtained from geothermal brine, which is a more sustainable, smaller footprint process.
[Reply]
BleedingRed 09:54 AM 11-24-2021
Just for the record,

I think it needs to be noted because alot of people seem to be have a misunderstanding about "Green Energy"

A wind turbine constructions uses more "Energy" to construct than it will produce in its lifetime. (You factor in construction and gas needed etc)

Also, lithium mining is extremely damaging to the environment, and puts out crazy amounts of CO2.

Add in the fact that the majority of energy production is NGL or Oil and you're really not improving much.


Cold Fusion or Nuclear would go a long way to helping with this. You will NEVER scale Wind/Solar in a way that is carbon neutral to keep up with demand. We need to spend more on R&D into Salt Reactors etc.
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Hog Rider 09:56 AM 11-24-2021
Remember when we were told to turn lights off, thermostats down, and wash in cold water, hang your laundry outside to 'save energy'?

Now, rewire your house and plug in your feckin' car - and like it!
Every 2 or three hundred miles wait in line for your turn at a charging station for a couple hours - and like it!
Fly around in a battery operated prop plane and hope the battery holds - and like it!

Oh, and use LEDs, wash in cold water, turn your thermostat down, or the government monitors will turn you in for wasting energy.
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HC_Chief 09:58 AM 11-24-2021
Originally Posted by bsp4444:
Lithium can be obtained from geothermal brine, which is a more sustainable, smaller footprint process.
Nice! The EV push is certainly driving innovation, which IMO is a good thing. Just like all other things innovative, early generations are expensive and buggy. As the market adopts and adapts, costs decrease, bugs are ironed out, and the mass production process significantly improves (along with supportive ecosystems, i.e. infrastructure in this instance).

Only drawback then becomes those cars are so damned quiet! :-) I love the sound of my obnoxious sports cars. That adds to the driving experience; it is visceral. If that Tesla only sounded like a Hellcat...
(yeah, I know they can play audio noise in the cabin via the sound system... that is the driving equivalent of a laugh track)

Tesla need to figure out braking. Their brake systems suck. Not sure if that is endemic to EVs in general (no drive train or transmission to assist in braking)? Need to figure that bit out as well.
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