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The Lounge>Whoo Hoo, electric cars?
ROYC75 09:55 PM 11-23-2021
I have no clue if this is correct, shit is over my pay scale but it friggin makes sense. Read on with an open mind!

Got this from my buddy Mark Reed... an interesting take on Electric Cars.

ďAs an engineer I love the electric vehicle technology However, I have been troubled for a longtime by the fact that the electrical energy to keep the batteries charged has to come from the grid, and that means more power generation and a huge increase in the distribution infrastructure. Whether generated from coal, gas, oil, wind or sun, installed generation capacity is limited.

A friend sent me the following that says it very well. You should all take a look at this short article.

IF ELECTRIC CARS DO NOT USE GASOLINE, THEY WILL NOT PARTICIPATE IN PAYING A GASOLINE TAX ON EVERY GALLON THAT IS SOLD FOR AUTOMOBILES, WHICH WAS ENACTED SOME YEARS AGO TO HELP TO MAINTAIN OUR ROADS AND BRIDGES. THEY WILL USE THE ROADS, BUT WILL NOT PAY FOR THEIR MAINTENANCE!

In case you were thinking of buying hybrid or an electric car...

Ever since the advent of electric cars, the REAL cost per mile of those things has never been discussed. All you ever heard was the mpg in terms of gasoline, with nary a mention of the cost of electricity to run it. This is the first article I've ever seen and it tells the story pretty much as I expected it to.

Electricity has to be one of the least efficient ways to power things, yet they're being shoved down our throats. Glad somebody finally put engineering and math to paper.

At a neighborhood BBQ I was talking to a neighbor, a BC Hydro Executive. I asked him how that renewable thing was doing. He laughed, then got serious.

If you really intend to adopt electric vehicles, he pointed out, you had to face certain realities. For example, a home charging system for a Tesla requires 75 amp service. The average house is equipped with 100 amp service. On our small street (approximately 25 homes), the electrical infrastructure would be unable to carry more than three houses with a single Tesla each. For even half the homes to have electric vehicles, the system would be wildly over-loaded.

This is the elephant in the room with electric vehicles. Our residential infrastructure cannot bear the load. So, as our genius elected officials promote this nonsense, not only are we being urged to buy these things and replace our reliable, cheap generating systems with expensive new windmills and solar cells, but we will also have to renovate our entire delivery system! This later "investment" will not be revealed until we're so far down this dead end road that it will be presented with an 'OOPS...!' and a shrug.

If you want to argue with a green person over cars that are eco-friendly, just read the following. Note: If you ARE a green person, read it anyway. It's enlightening.

Eric test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors and he writes, "For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine." Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. So, the range including the 9-gallon gas tank and the 16 kwh battery is approximately 270 miles.

It will take you 4.5 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph. Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours. In a typical road trip your average speed (including charging time) would be 20 mph.

According to General Motors, the Volt battery holds 16 kwh of electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery. The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned, so I looked up what I pay for electricity.

I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kwh. 16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery. $18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery. Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine that gets only 32 mpg. $3.19 per gallon divided by 32 Mpg = $0.10 per mile.

The gasoline powered car costs about $25,000 while the Volt costs $46,000 plus. So the Canadian Government wants loyal Canadians not to do the math, but simply pay twice as much for a car, that costs more than seven times as much to run, and takes three times longer to drive across the country.

WAKE UP NORTH AMERICA!!!!!!!
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tyreekthefreak 03:28 AM 11-24-2021
Originally Posted by Rain Man:
Further, I've read that in many cities cars weren't even a foregone conclusion when they showed up. The same technology that was helping cars was helping streetcars, trolleys, and trains, so for a while you had horses sharing the streets with cars which were sharing the streets with things like trolleys. It just happened that cars overwhelmingly won the market battle. That would be an interesting thing to go back in time and observe, and see people's attitudes.

The technological changes in that era were so immense once electricity came into common use. I mean, my house had both electrical supply and gas supply (or kerosene or something) to the light fixtures because apparently both were still considered viable options.

And in a forty year period you got the telephone, cameras, motion pictures, refrigerators, phonographs, cars, and even airplanes. Did people love all that new stuff or were they wary of it?
Everything in the 40yr period you mention improved our lives. Electric cars and green energy as a whole are a step back. The very premise of this Green New Deal is unproven. In the 70's scientists were calling for an Ice Age!

And yes edave.....once people could afford a car they ditched the buggy! Common sense 101!!!!
[Reply]
ChiefGator 04:32 AM 11-24-2021
Well, the transition from horse to car in fact took almost fifty years. Horses themselves as the primary transportation for people was in itself fairly new. Most people walked or used oxen before that.

Anyway, interesting (long) article here.. https://thetyee.ca/News/2013/03/06/H...ung-Big-Shift/
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ChiefGator 04:35 AM 11-24-2021
Originally Posted by Braincase:
Thinking about adding some solar and wind power to the house here. Might look at a do-it-yourself power wall. Have looked at the F-150 Lightning and other all electric trucks. Backing the house up with a propane-based Generac unit, primarily because I already have the propane infrastructure and a 1000 gallon tank.
A question for you in a sec..

But first, I'm building my house out on my farm property (finally), and building it green.. with SIPs, solar, ground-heat transfer system, wind-mill based well, etc.. I'm actually looking at electric tractors for my second tractor in fact, that I can charge with my solar system.

What is a power wall? I guess I haven't heard of that before.

And, damn nice backup unit.. I hadn't considered that. I am getting propane brought in JUST to run my stovetop. I think I will look at expanding that infrastructure and adding a propane-based Generac unit.
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bsp4444 05:08 AM 11-24-2021
Article is dated. The Volt is discontinued and already more efficient EV’s, BEV’s, and HEV’s are available. They are competitively priced to ICE’s.
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SithCeNtZ 05:57 AM 11-24-2021
Originally Posted by TimBone:
I'll be the one to get it to DC, I guess. And this is a genuine question, because I admit I have done absolutely zero research.

Can someone explain why Republicans are so opposed to electric cars? I was genuinely surprised to hear it was a political talking point at all.

Is it because big oil money is on the Reoublican side?
Being objective here without taking sides, there are two main components.One is it's because Republicans are generally the party who doesn't want to have a choice made for them and want the government to stay out of things. Then you look at climate change and if you chose to believe that this is a problem, then government action is likely going to be needed in the form of regulations and possibly tax money being implemented to help solve the problem. Republicans are not a party that historically supports those things unless absolutely required. Since electric cars are pushing for a better environmental impact, they will inevitably be lumped in as supporting climate change initiatives.

The second one, and this could be bigger than point one, is how they are marketed. Electric and clean energy has long been an enemy of Republicans because rural towns that relied on older fuel sources like coal for jobs can't just transition to electric jobs. Therefore it's an easy point to bring up to rural voters: do you support a technology that crushed your way of life or do you want to go back to your old way of life you were more than happy with? It's an easy talking point that generates emotion. Pair that with the face of electric cars being a silicon valley tech bro, and the states/cities heavily favoring progress on EVs are the most progressive voting areas out there. None of that exactly speaks to the Republican base and it makes electric cars a symbol of everything they oppose.
[Reply]
tyreekthefreak 06:07 AM 11-24-2021
Originally Posted by ChiefGator:
A question for you in a sec..

But first, I'm building my house out on my farm property (finally), and building it green.. with SIPs, solar, ground-heat transfer system, wind-mill based well, etc.. I'm actually looking at electric tractors for my second tractor in fact, that I can charge with my solar system.

What is a power wall? I guess I haven't heard of that before.

And, damn nice backup unit.. I hadn't considered that. I am getting propane brought in JUST to run my stovetop. I think I will look at expanding that infrastructure and adding a propane-based Generac unit.
Good luck with an electric tractor! Do you own any of the battery powered lawn tools on the market today? They are all a step down from gas operated tools, in both speed and torque! Come back after you've lived in your green home for 10 years and tell us all about it. It's not nearly as rosy as you make it sound! The automobile improved our lives 10 fold. Electric/solar will not improve anything! All it will do is appease the lunatics who think global warming is a man made calamity.
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chiefzilla1501 06:28 AM 11-24-2021
Originally Posted by SithCeNtZ:
Being objective here without taking sides, there are two main components.One is it's because Republicans are generally the party who doesn't want to have a choice made for them and want the government to stay out of things. Then you look at climate change and if you chose to believe that this is a problem, then government action is likely going to be needed in the form of regulations and possibly tax money being implemented to help solve the problem. Republicans are not a party that historically supports those things unless absolutely required. Since electric cars are pushing for a better environmental impact, they will inevitably be lumped in as supporting climate change initiatives.

The second one, and this could be bigger than point one, is how they are marketed. Electric and clean energy has long been an enemy of Republicans because rural towns that relied on older fuel sources like coal for jobs can't just transition to electric jobs. Therefore it's an easy point to bring up to rural voters: do you support a technology that crushed your way of life or do you want to go back to your old way of life you were more than happy with? It's an easy talking point that generates emotion. Pair that with the face of electric cars being a silicon valley tech bro, and the states/cities heavily favoring progress on EVs are the most progressive voting areas out there. None of that exactly speaks to the Republican base and it makes electric cars a symbol of everything they oppose.
Agreed on the emotional side. Though I do think rural American will be prioritized for building a lot of clean energy infrastructure. So I think some of that argument fades away

The bigger divide that I see is practicality for urban vs rural.that smart infrastructure will accelerate commerce and right now we’re way behind China. Faster, cheaper and most importantly way smarter shipping. But struggling to see the ROI of building massive ev infrastructure on tens to hundreds of miles of country road. Let alone justify ev in a rural area where parking and traffic are way less a concern. A part of me feels like gas only got off the ground because of public investment in gas stations and drilling. Ev cant be scaled until it gets the same. But understandably rural America doesn’t feel they should foot this bill
[Reply]
RedRaider56 06:45 AM 11-24-2021
Originally Posted by ChiefGator:



What is a power wall? I guess I haven't heard of that before.
The powerwall is basically a big ol' battery to store power from your solar panels. If for some reason the solar panels quit charging, or the electric grid goes down, the powerwall kicks in and powers your appliances for a period of time.
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HemiEd 07:00 AM 11-24-2021
Originally Posted by tyreekthefreak:
Good luck with an electric tractor! Do you own any of the battery powered lawn tools on the market today? They are all a step down from gas operated tools, in both speed and torque! Come back after you've lived in your green home for 10 years and tell us all about it. It's not nearly as rosy as you make it sound! The automobile improved our lives 10 fold. Electric/solar will not improve anything! All it will do is appease the lunatics who think global warming is a man made calamity.
Yeah, history is repeating itself. There are a lot of articles available on the subject that make for some interesting reading.

The power grid issue is real.

We have a hybrid as one of our vehicles and it is nice to get 52 mpg but at the sacrifice of power and comfort.
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Rainbarrel 07:03 AM 11-24-2021
Work from maskless home, order everything online except the tranny operation in Mexico.
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ChiefGator 07:12 AM 11-24-2021
Originally Posted by tyreekthefreak:
Good luck with an electric tractor! Do you own any of the battery powered lawn tools on the market today? They are all a step down from gas operated tools, in both speed and torque!
Actually, torque is exactly what they can easily get from large motors. An electric tractor is perfect to utilize what motors naturally provide.

I have electric tools too.. love my DeWalt chainsaw, but still have to fire up my Stihls for larger tasks. Part of that is really that the DeWalts are made for home and spot work. And they have to keep the motor and battery light to be a light handheld device. I read reviews of electric mowers and they now appear to challenge gas-powered push motors in power.


Originally Posted by tyreekthefreak:
Come back after you've lived in your green home for 10 years and tell us all about it. It's not nearly as rosy as you make it sound!
Hmm.. in ten years... I will be done paying for the solar system, which will still have 10 more years of life on it. I may have to replace the batteries in it, but I am doing as small a battery pack as required to run off the grid when we lose power. I won't have any water bill or electric bill. Since my house is made of SIPs and I am doing ground-heated water, there will be very little electric usage anyway, so I may get paid by the utility company, since I am adding power to their grid. While I will mostly use my conventional wells, the wind-powered well always provides me water, without any electric requirement at all. I will be energy and water independent.

Only negative is that I will still be making house payments, since the SIP construction is a bit more expensive. A ton more structural though, so it can survive through tornadoes and hurricanes pretty easily where conventionally built houses are ripped apart.

And that I will have to futz with my own personal power grid a bit to keep it running, but it will make me use my electrical engineering degree I suppose.
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ChiefGator 07:13 AM 11-24-2021
Originally Posted by RedRaider56:
The powerwall is basically a big ol' battery to store power from your solar panels. If for some reason the solar panels quit charging, or the electric grid goes down, the powerwall kicks in and powers your appliances for a period of time.
Ah.. thanks! I'm mostly using the grid as my battery for the solar, but I do need a small bank of batteries to get me through a day or so just for convenience and because you have to have batteries to be able to run your solar system when electricity goes out, per utility companies. Probably need the batteries to disconnect your system from the grid at a minimum in those cases, so you aren't pumping electricity in as a poor tech is trying to work on a downed wire.
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RedRaider56 07:16 AM 11-24-2021
Originally Posted by ChiefGator:
Ah.. thanks! I'm mostly using the grid as my battery for the solar, but I do need a small bank of batteries to get me through a day or so just for convenience and because you have to have batteries to be able to run your solar system when electricity goes out, per utility companies. Probably need the batteries to disconnect your system from the grid at a minimum in those cases, so you aren't pumping electricity in as a poor tech is trying to work on a downed wire.
Correct. I believe the Tesla PowerWall switches automatically but not 100% sure on that. I friend of mine signed up to have one installed so I'll have to pick his brain to see how it works.
They aren't cheap. I think his is running about $12K for installation.
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kstater 07:21 AM 11-24-2021
So your argument against EVs are we need infrastructure improvements?


Well, duh

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk
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Simply Red 11-24-2021, 07:30 AM
This message has been deleted by Simply Red.
scho63 07:30 AM 11-24-2021
The government already has plans to monitor how many miles you drive and tax you per mile to recoup all the lost tax revenues when we reach the tipping point.

Thats at least a decade away
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