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Saccopoo Memorial Draft Forum>Mathieu v. Ward: Who Ya Got?
Direckshun 09:23 AM 11-23-2021
I think we all doubt the Chiefs can re-sign both of these players.

So if you had to re-sign either of these players this coming offseason and let the other walk, which one and why?
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Chris Meck 09:30 AM 11-23-2021
Mathieu. He affects the game in so many dimensions. Ward is a good corner, but corners are overvalued in this era in the NFL as they're not really allowed to do anything but run with receivers. Take Ward's comp pick and draft his eventual replacement, rolling with Sneed, Fenton, Hughes, and Baker + draftee.

I would not sign Mathieu to a long deal; maybe a 3 year deal that's in reality 2 years that we could get out of the 3rd if necessary.
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DJ's left nut 10:07 AM 11-23-2021
Ward

4 years is a big age difference and Mathieu is going to want to be paid at the top of the market for obvious decline years. Ward plays a style that should age relatively well.

Additionally, I don't see any reason why Thornhill or even Fenton couldn't step into that swiss-army role and we can back-fill with younger talent or another draft pick. If we lose Ward, Fenton will be moving outside. Whereas if we keep Ward, we could slide Fenton into Mathieu's role - he's an intuitive, physical player in his own right.

But really, I'm not re-signing a 30 year old DB who's method of messaging is getting stale.
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Direckshun 10:25 AM 11-23-2021
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
Ward

4 years is a big age difference and Mathieu is going to want to be paid at the top of the market for obvious decline years. Ward plays a style that should age relatively well.

Additionally, I don't see any reason why Thornhill or even Fenton couldn't step into that swiss-army role and we can back-fill with younger talent or another draft pick. If we lose Ward, Fenton will be moving outside. Whereas if we keep Ward, we could slide Fenton into Mathieu's role - he's an intuitive, physical player in his own right.

But really, I'm not re-signing a 30 year old DB who's method of messaging is getting stale.
That messaging is instrumental to Spags doing what he does.

And I don't know how it's getting stale. The communication and scheme work in the back 7 is elite right now.


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DJ's left nut 12:01 PM 11-23-2021
Originally Posted by Direckshun:
That messaging is instrumental to Spags doing what he does.

And I don't know how it's getting stale. The communication and scheme work in the back 7 is elite right now.
That's lining up. It's not the "You my guy, Five!" howling that Mathieu does all the time.

There's a difference between on-field communications and 'messaging'.

I think his type of leadership has a shelf-life before it's tuned out. I think we're reaching that point. Like I said, when things were going poorly and he was out there showing guys up, he was as much a part of the problem as he was a part of the solution.

And Fenton coming in with Ward and Thornhill and playing assignment sound football sure made the scheme look better, didn't it?

If I can keep those 3 guys around next year and drop Mathieu (the defense didn't improve when he came back after week 1, nor did the communications/assignments), i think that's the way to go.
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Direckshun 01:14 PM 11-23-2021
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
That's lining up. It's not the "You my guy, Five!" howling that Mathieu does all the time.

There's a difference between on-field communications and 'messaging'.

I think his type of leadership has a shelf-life before it's tuned out. I think we're reaching that point. Like I said, when things were going poorly and he was out there showing guys up, he was as much a part of the problem as he was a part of the solution.

And Fenton coming in with Ward and Thornhill and playing assignment sound football sure made the scheme look better, didn't it?

If I can keep those 3 guys around next year and drop Mathieu (the defense didn't improve when he came back after week 1, nor did the communications/assignments), i think that's the way to go.
Fenton was a 6th round pick.
Ward was an undrafted player we traded a backup lineman for.
Sneed was a 4th round pick.

I mean, these guys are all playing at high levels right now. We can -- and should -- credit the coaches for that. But they're not the only culprits here. Mathieu has shown them how to watch film, how to put in the hours, and we have evidence from Veach himself that he's the first call these new, young players receive when they join the team. He also gives them rare, sincere public shout-outs that you rarely see as well.

And I really want to underline this point, even though I've said it before: the year we won the Super Bowl, it was Mathieu that won the team MVP, not Mahomes, which of course is not remotely a knock on Mahomes.

That doesn't disprove your theory, that Mathieu's leadership style is now reaching the end of its shelf life. But it does put the burden on folks like yourself to prove it, because Mathieu's degree of messaging has absolutely owned this team's mentality. It's possible they'll phase him out, but I personally have no evidence that they are.

Ward is a very good player and honestly it wouldn't upset me if they signed him over Mathieu for the reasons you've mentioned.

But I think Mathieu brings too much for too many and we haven't seen a decline in his play.

Give me a three year deal that makes him cuttable in Year 3.
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RunKC 01:26 PM 11-23-2021
I just canít see Spags being happy about letting Clark, Hitchens and Matheiu all go in one offseason.

I think heís gonna want to keep at least one of em. And that would easily be Matheiu
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Buehler445 02:00 PM 11-23-2021
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
Ward

4 years is a big age difference and Mathieu is going to want to be paid at the top of the market for obvious decline years. Ward plays a style that should age relatively well.

Additionally, I don't see any reason why Thornhill or even Fenton couldn't step into that swiss-army role and we can back-fill with younger talent or another draft pick. If we lose Ward, Fenton will be moving outside. Whereas if we keep Ward, we could slide Fenton into Mathieu's role - he's an intuitive, physical player in his own right.

But really, I'm not re-signing a 30 year old DB who's method of messaging is getting stale.
In theory I agree. Mathieu is a different breed of cat. I think you're right, but Mathieu has made an entire career of embarrassing fools that underestimate him.

I'm bad at the liklihood game, so less than a grain of salt here. I think it's unlikely Mathieu plays up to a top of the league contract. At least if it's over 2 years. So if he is willing to walk for that, dueces.

The wonky part is if he's willing to take less, it's how much less and how long. That has a higher probability of working out, obviously.

As far as the message, IDK man, it's hard to put yourself in the locker room. If his messaging is getting stale, which I think Reid is good enough to identify, he gone. I think it's possible Mathieu is just so goddamned smart anybody with anything rattling around in their dome has to at least respect him.

I stand by my original position, that I put out an offer I'm comfortable with and try to convince him that the money after football will more than make up for the salary if he stays here and wins Bowls instead of wallowing in anguish in Detroit or NYJ or whatever.

I think it's unlikely he takes that deal, but that's where I come from.
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Chris Meck 05:56 AM 11-24-2021
Originally Posted by RunKC:
I just canít see Spags being happy about letting Clark, Hitchens and Matheiu all go in one offseason.

I think heís gonna want to keep at least one of em. And that would easily be Matheiu
I think you've struck on the most important piece of the pie here.

As bad as they were the first 7 games, I was in favor of a total gutting and start over. It looked bad, like they weren't playing hard for Spags anymore and defense is a lot about WANT TO.

Since then, Spags has more than saved his job.

I think it's hard to argue that it all depends on the front 4. If they get pressure and are sound in their run gaps, the entire defense looks much better. But I can't see Spags wanting all 3 of his position group leaders gone in one offseason.

Hitch is outclassed by Bolton, that's easy. Clark disappears for entire seasons, is wildly expensive, and has serious off-field issues, that's easy. Mathieu would cost as much as a slightly above average CB. I think depending on the length of the deal, that's the more likely option.
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kccrow 07:04 AM 11-24-2021
Ward. Move Sneed to Mathieu's role if you don't get a guy like Justin Reid or Marcus Williams in FA that can cover anyone.
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Chris Meck 07:19 AM 11-24-2021
Originally Posted by kccrow:
Ward. Move Sneed to Mathieu's role if you don't get a guy like Justin Reid or Marcus Williams in FA that can cover anyone.
why are we moving a guy who's great into another role? Why not leave him where he's great?

Ward is going to get like $15m+ per on the FA market.

I don't think corners are worth that under the current rules.
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CatfishBob2 10:46 AM 11-24-2021
Sneed has been great in every role he's played in this defense. If the money makes sense I'd kinda like to see that move too
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jd1020 11:21 AM 11-24-2021
Originally Posted by Chris Meck:
I think it's hard to argue that it all depends on the front 4. If they get pressure and are sound in their run gaps, the entire defense looks much better.
So it's hard to argue but then you follow it up with the main argument. Interesting strategy.

How good was the defense with Mathieu on the field and 0 pass rush?

How good is the defense with a pass rush?

What kind of impact is Mathieu having in the defense since the Chiefs started getting pressure on the QB?

Originally Posted by Chris Meck:
Mathieu would cost as much as a slightly above average CB. I think depending on the length of the deal, that's the more likely option.
We really think the most likely option is to pay a safety for a handful of tackles and 1 PD every 4-5 weeks over a pass rush?

If Mathieu was going to put pen to paper for just above an average salary, he wouldn't be due to enter FA at the end of the year.

What's an average safety get in FA these days? Like half of what he's bringing in now, maybe even quite a bit less than that? There's only 18 safeties in the NFL averaging more than $7M. The last time a team asked Tyrann to take a pay cut for his diminishing play on the field they had to release him because he told them to fuck off.

Mathieu said he was disrespected by Jamal Adams deal. Maybe he wasn't asking for as much as him but he clearly thinks hes better than him and he got as much as he did. Whether or not Mathieu becomes the highest paid safety in the league, it's clear he's going to want to be paid as one of the best, and it's also clear that most teams aren't shelling out that kind of dough for a safety.
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el borracho 02:05 PM 11-24-2021
I would keep Ward, and it is an easy decision.

Originally Posted by RunKC:
I just canít see Spags being happy about letting Clark, Hitchens and Matheiu all go in one offseason.

I think heís gonna want to keep at least one of em. And that would easily be Matheiu
We just blew up our entire O Line and started three rookies, all next to each other. We can definitely lose Clark, Hitchens and Mathieu and be just fine.

Spags defense needs a great D Line to function. Put your resources there.
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Nightfyre 02:40 PM 11-24-2021
Ward, but we should be able to keep both provided Reek gets an extension.
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