Free Agent Signings:
Carlos Santana
Mike Minor
Michael Taylor
Ervin Santana
Top 10 Prospects:
1 Bobby Witt Jr., SS
2 Asa Lacy, LHP
3 Daniel Lynch, LHP
4 Jackson Kowar, RHP
5 Erick Pena, OF
6 Nick Loftin, SS
7 Kyle Isbel, OF
8 Khali Lee, OF
9 Jonathan Bowlan, RHP
10 Carlos Hernedez, RHP [Reply]
Originally Posted by dlphg9:
Was reading an article on Fangraphs about Salvy's newfound power. He then talked about HOF chances and said he's skeptical and a big part of that is because of new framing data and when that data is added into WAR calculation, then Salvy's WAR tanks due to him having the "5th lowest framing mark in the pitch tracking era". He thinks the best chance Salvy has to get into the hall is to become a full-time DH and play well into his 30s.
I can't say enough how much I 'hate' hearing about pitch framing and how so much weight is being given to it. Look, I get it. It's a thing and does have some value, I don't deny that. But so much of the conclusions for the data regarding pitch framing is based on subjectivity by different home plate umpires. Home plate umpires with different strike zones, inconsistent calling of said strikes, etc.
I actually was arguing with someone on Twitter the other day about Salvy. Was talking about if it wasn't for Ohtani and Vlad, Sal might have a legit argument for AL MVP. My argument was based on, of course, his offense and his strong defense at a high value defensive position. This guy said he sucks defensively and is the worst defensive catcher in baseball. Linked FG's pitch framing data. :-)
Yes, he is at the bottom of the league in pitch framing, but he is basically elite or near the top of EVERY other defensive categorie for catchers. Top 5 in caught stealing %, passed balls (least), errors (least), DWAR, etc.
It's just fucking stupid this notion that pitch framing should be weighted above all other defensive metrics for catchers. I mean, he's a multiple gold glove winner for a reason. And what about Yadi? Anyone think he sucks defensively? Of course not. Guess what? He's near the bottom at pitch framing this year as well.
The whole argument about pitch framing pisses me off. [Reply]
It’s so dumb I don’t even dignify it, I use bWAR for catchers. FG is great but framing is beyond f**** retarded and I’ve read their research on it, and am not swayed [Reply]
Originally Posted by dlphg9:
Was reading an article on Fangraphs about Salvy's newfound power. He then talked about HOF chances and said he's skeptical and a big part of that is because of new framing data and when that data is added into WAR calculation, then Salvy's WAR tanks due to him having the "5th lowest framing mark in the pitch tracking era". He thinks the best chance Salvy has to get into the hall is to become a full-time DH and play well into his 30s.
It's hard to believe that framing data is going to keep a guy out of the Hall, but my understanding is that it is a sizeable component of fangraphs WAR (but not baseball reference's WAR).
And that's one of the huge problems with WAR, especially since it has become or is becoming the standard to compare players across eras. The defensive component even for current players is questionable--but we're supposed to believe they have anything close to accurate data for defense for past players?
We're supposed to believe they can really compute Total Zone Rating and Defensive Runs Saved for old timers? They really have the data for pitch framing for more recent guys like Gary Carter and Johnny Bench? That's who he'll be compared to, but there's no way they have the same data available. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Prison Bitch:
It’s so dumb I don’t even dignify it, I use bWAR for catchers. FG is great but framing is beyond f**** retarded and I’ve read their research on it, and am not swayed
Same.
Fangraphs is awesome, but some of its defensive metrics are just silly.
Their OF and IF defense ratings are pretty great (with the exception of how much value they assign to 1B for range, which is largely dependent on positioning for most 1B). But C is just... dumb. [Reply]
So if pitch framing is such an important component of fWAR for catchers, how do they address it for players who pre-dated all the current pitch tracking? [Reply]
I completely agree with you all about the framing thing. It seems really fucking stupid that framing would be so highly weighted in any calculation. Like how many times is a catcher going to get a ball called a strike over the course of a game? How many of those would equal 1 WAR? Seems pretty stupid that framing would be more important than throwing out base runners, since a catcher with a cannon will keep his opponents from trying to steal or get too big of a lead. [Reply]
Originally Posted by cosmo20002:
So if pitch framing is such an important component of fWAR for catchers, how do they address it for players who pre-dated all the current pitch tracking?
