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The Lounge>Whoo Hoo, electric cars?
ROYC75 09:55 PM 11-23-2021
I have no clue if this is correct, shit is over my pay scale but it friggin makes sense. Read on with an open mind!

Got this from my buddy Mark Reed... an interesting take on Electric Cars.

ďAs an engineer I love the electric vehicle technology However, I have been troubled for a longtime by the fact that the electrical energy to keep the batteries charged has to come from the grid, and that means more power generation and a huge increase in the distribution infrastructure. Whether generated from coal, gas, oil, wind or sun, installed generation capacity is limited.

A friend sent me the following that says it very well. You should all take a look at this short article.

IF ELECTRIC CARS DO NOT USE GASOLINE, THEY WILL NOT PARTICIPATE IN PAYING A GASOLINE TAX ON EVERY GALLON THAT IS SOLD FOR AUTOMOBILES, WHICH WAS ENACTED SOME YEARS AGO TO HELP TO MAINTAIN OUR ROADS AND BRIDGES. THEY WILL USE THE ROADS, BUT WILL NOT PAY FOR THEIR MAINTENANCE!

In case you were thinking of buying hybrid or an electric car...

Ever since the advent of electric cars, the REAL cost per mile of those things has never been discussed. All you ever heard was the mpg in terms of gasoline, with nary a mention of the cost of electricity to run it. This is the first article I've ever seen and it tells the story pretty much as I expected it to.

Electricity has to be one of the least efficient ways to power things, yet they're being shoved down our throats. Glad somebody finally put engineering and math to paper.

At a neighborhood BBQ I was talking to a neighbor, a BC Hydro Executive. I asked him how that renewable thing was doing. He laughed, then got serious.

If you really intend to adopt electric vehicles, he pointed out, you had to face certain realities. For example, a home charging system for a Tesla requires 75 amp service. The average house is equipped with 100 amp service. On our small street (approximately 25 homes), the electrical infrastructure would be unable to carry more than three houses with a single Tesla each. For even half the homes to have electric vehicles, the system would be wildly over-loaded.

This is the elephant in the room with electric vehicles. Our residential infrastructure cannot bear the load. So, as our genius elected officials promote this nonsense, not only are we being urged to buy these things and replace our reliable, cheap generating systems with expensive new windmills and solar cells, but we will also have to renovate our entire delivery system! This later "investment" will not be revealed until we're so far down this dead end road that it will be presented with an 'OOPS...!' and a shrug.

If you want to argue with a green person over cars that are eco-friendly, just read the following. Note: If you ARE a green person, read it anyway. It's enlightening.

Eric test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors and he writes, "For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine." Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. So, the range including the 9-gallon gas tank and the 16 kwh battery is approximately 270 miles.

It will take you 4.5 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph. Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours. In a typical road trip your average speed (including charging time) would be 20 mph.

According to General Motors, the Volt battery holds 16 kwh of electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery. The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned, so I looked up what I pay for electricity.

I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kwh. 16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery. $18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery. Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine that gets only 32 mpg. $3.19 per gallon divided by 32 Mpg = $0.10 per mile.

The gasoline powered car costs about $25,000 while the Volt costs $46,000 plus. So the Canadian Government wants loyal Canadians not to do the math, but simply pay twice as much for a car, that costs more than seven times as much to run, and takes three times longer to drive across the country.

WAKE UP NORTH AMERICA!!!!!!!
[Reply]
GloryDayz 09:11 AM 11-26-2021
Originally Posted by stevieray:
I don't relate the all or nothing mantra.

...if both are viable, it's just another choice.

That's never a bad thing.

IMO, it's not about fossil fuels, it's still about acceleration.
I agree. I like the idea of my Harley and it's engine, my current trucks and their profiles and abilities, but I'm 100% open to add an EV to the mix and using it where and when it makes the most sense.
[Reply]
DaFace 10:01 AM 11-26-2021
Originally Posted by GloryDayz:
Agree, but my lifestyle sort of requires a truck and, fair being fair, it takes a lot more to fill my truck than most people pay to fill their cars. I'm still very interested and it sounds like the technology to make my daily ride (still a truck) is about to happen. And that's awesome. Honestly, I don't mind having both. Gas for longer runs (pulling a trailer from KC to St. Louis and back all in the same day), an electric truck for "in the KC area" runs.
That's exactly how I think of it. I'm a bit proponent of EVs for sure, but I like to think I'm pretty practical about it. I'm not a Tesla fanboy (though I definitely appreciate how much they've accelerated the technology). I understand and agree with people who aren't a fan of stopping for an hour every 200-300 miles to charge your car. I understand that most of them are still pretty pricey.

But overall, if you meet these criteria:

1. There's an EV you like that's in your price range
2. You're a multi-car household (and don't often have both cars on long road trips at the same time)
3. You can get a L2 charger installed in your garage

...owning an EV is almost a no-brainer. The place it gets complicated is if you want to take it on long road trips or you can't charge at home.

(And as an addendum, hybrids and PHEVs are no brainers for pretty much anyone with the caveat that they're usually a little more expensive than gas cars, so you have to do a little math to figure out if they'll pay for themselves or not.)
[Reply]
GloryDayz 10:27 AM 11-26-2021
Originally Posted by DaFace:
That's exactly how I think of it. I'm a bit proponent of EVs for sure, but I like to think I'm pretty practical about it. I'm not a Tesla fanboy (though I definitely appreciate how much they've accelerated the technology). I understand and agree with people who aren't a fan of stopping for an hour every 200-300 miles to charge your car. I understand that most of them are still pretty pricey.

But overall, if you meet these criteria:

1. There's an EV you like that's in your price range
2. You're a multi-car household (and don't often have both cars on long road trips at the same time)
3. You can get a L2 charger installed in your garage

...owning an EV is almost a no-brainer. The place it gets complicated is if you want to take it on long road trips or you can't charge at home.

(And as an addendum, hybrids and PHEVs are no brainers for pretty much anyone with the caveat that they're usually a little more expensive than gas cars, so you have to do a little math to figure out if they'll pay for themselves or not.)
Quality post. Like...
[Reply]
stevieray 10:31 AM 11-26-2021
Originally Posted by DaFace:


...owning an EV is almost a no-brainer.
I don't agree with this.

I think it's a no brainer for you, and that's how it's supposed to be.
[Reply]
Bearcat 10:48 AM 11-26-2021
Originally Posted by stevieray:
I don't agree with this.

I think it's a no brainer for you, and that's how it's supposed to be.
Seems that's where "if you meet these criteria" comes into play, where #1 is literally liking an EV.
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ScareCrowe 01:16 PM 11-26-2021
Originally Posted by DaFace:
The entire OP is garbage. Can you charge a Tesla at 75 amps if your home supports it? Sure. Do you have to? No. My home charger goes at 30 amps, and that's more than enough for an overnight charge, though it might be a little tighter with a long-range Tesla. (And yes, you can charge on a 120v system. It's just slower.)

And I have no idea what the "our neighborhoods can't handle it" is getting at.
I have some experience with this professionally, I work in HVAC & we've had a lot of people over the years look at switching from gas to electric heat. I've had several different people be told by their electric provider that the necessary switch from a 100 amp to a 200 amp service in 1 house would make the existing transformer overloaded & they would have to pay to replace it at about $25,000. Even assuming everyone can get by with a 30 amp charger, if you have 2 or 3 drivers, that's 60/90 amps just for your cars. That's going to require everyone with a 100 amp service to switch to 200. And most all electric houses will have to go to a 320 or 400 amp service.

Again in some areas 1 or 2 houses making this type of an upgrade is too much for the existing equipment to handle.
[Reply]
DaFace 01:43 PM 11-26-2021
Originally Posted by ScareCrowe:
I have some experience with this professionally, I work in HVAC & we've had a lot of people over the years look at switching from gas to electric heat. I've had several different people be told by their electric provider that the necessary switch from a 100 amp to a 200 amp service in 1 house would make the existing transformer overloaded & they would have to pay to replace it at about $25,000. Even assuming everyone can get by with a 30 amp charger, if you have 2 or 3 drivers, that's 60/90 amps just for your cars. That's going to require everyone with a 100 amp service to switch to 200. And most all electric houses will have to go to a 320 or 400 amp service.

Again in some areas 1 or 2 houses making this type of an upgrade is too much for the existing equipment to handle.
I have two cars on 150 amp service fwiw. Unless you're driving hundreds miles every day, it's not that hard to just charge one at a time. But obviously it's worth checking with an electrician before you take the plunge.
[Reply]
Chief Pagan 02:01 PM 11-26-2021
Originally Posted by ScareCrowe:
I have some experience with this professionally, I work in HVAC & we've had a lot of people over the years look at switching from gas to electric heat. I've had several different people be told by their electric provider that the necessary switch from a 100 amp to a 200 amp service in 1 house would make the existing transformer overloaded & they would have to pay to replace it at about $25,000.
Electric heat is that much bigger load than an air conditioner? And I take it this isn't a heat pump?
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ScareCrowe 02:12 PM 11-26-2021
Originally Posted by DaFace:
I have two cars on 150 amp service fwiw. Unless you're driving hundreds miles every day, it's not that hard to just charge one at a time. But obviously it's worth checking with an electrician before you take the plunge.
Yeah you're not going to necessarily have to charge both at the same time, but I would think you'd want to have the capacity to do it just in case. Because when both people happen to use their vehicles a lot on the same day not being able to charge at the same time could mean one person doesn't get the charge they need to make their commute the next day. Like most things electrical, you have to prepare for the worst case scenario. I mean it's not very often that your oven, water heater, AC & refrigerator all run at the same time, but you have to be set up just in case they do.

But my point was more to the infrastructure than any one person. If several houses in any given neighborhood even upgrade from 100 amp service to 150 can be too much for our current power grid. So wholesale changing to electric vehicles is going to require huge upgrades to the power grid.
[Reply]
ScareCrowe 02:32 PM 11-26-2021
Originally Posted by Chief Pagan:
Electric heat is that much bigger load than an air conditioner? And I take it this isn't a heat pump?
Yes electric heat is much bigger load than an AC. A middle sized modern residential AC unit (3 tons) will draw about 15-20 amps. A middle sized electric furnace (15 kw) will draw about 70-75 amps. Heat pumps will draw the exact same amount as the equivalent AC, but will have to have some form of backup heat in the cold months anywhere North of Texas.
[Reply]
DaFace 02:37 PM 11-26-2021
Originally Posted by ScareCrowe:
Yeah you're not going to necessarily have to charge both at the same time, but I would think you'd want to have the capacity to do it just in case. Because when both people happen to use their vehicles a lot on the same day not being able to charge at the same time could mean one person doesn't get the charge they need to make their commute the next day. Like most things electrical, you have to prepare for the worst case scenario. I mean it's not very often that your oven, water heater, AC & refrigerator all run at the same time, but you have to be set up just in case they do.



But my point was more to the infrastructure than any one person. If several houses in any given neighborhood even upgrade from 100 amp service to 150 can be too much for our current power grid. So wholesale changing to electric vehicles is going to require huge upgrades to the power grid.
Got it. Makes sense.
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DaFace 02:38 PM 11-26-2021
Originally Posted by ScareCrowe:
Yes electric heat is much bigger load than an AC. A middle sized modern residential AC unit (3 tons) will draw about 15-20 amps. A middle sized electric furnace (15 kw) will draw about 70-75 amps. Heat pumps will draw the exact same amount as the equivalent AC, but will have to have some form of backup heat in the cold months anywhere North of Texas.
And yep on this as well. That's why EV range is impacted so much more in cold weather compared to warm weather.
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ScareCrowe 02:46 PM 11-26-2021
Originally Posted by DaFace:
And yep on this as well. That's why EV range is impacted so much more in cold weather compared to warm weather.
Exactly, & also why so many EV manufacturers are looking at heat pump technology as it somewhat levels that playing field. Where ICE's don't have to consider heat at all as you're actively trying to remove heat from an ICE at all times. So heat costs nothing & actually helps with keeping the engine cool.
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