And I say that is horse shit. The only thing from that wife beating steroid using piece of shit that belongs in the HOF is the ball that got branded with the asterisk.
Originally Posted by DRM08:
I hate when people say he’s arguably the greatest hitter. We have stats before Bonds took the juice. He was nowhere close to the greatest. He was around a 0.300 career hitter before the juice and suddenly it jumps to 0.350 or higher. He also had that ridiculous arm guard which helped him crowd the plate. Without the arm guard and the steroids, he was a 0.300 hitter and nowhere near the best home run hitter either.
The most impressive thing about Bonds was that he stole a ton of bases and was a pretty good fielder in addition to a very good hitter. He could have finished his career with 600ish homers and 600ish stolen bases if he stayed away from steroids. Bulked himself up to focus on home runs and it hurt his base running ability.
Which is still a HOF career. And if that arm guard was so valuable, everyone could have used it. Barry Bonds should be in the HOF period, in an era where almost everyone else used steroids anyway. He is a cheater, but he is a HOFer and the best baseball player I've ever seen. [Reply]
Baseball writers all sat back and watched the McGwire-Sosa HR race and the whole steroid era and said nothing because it made their stories easier to write. Now they won't vote those same players into the HOF with their horseshit arguments.
The biggest frauds are the baseball writers and their HOF votes. [Reply]
Originally Posted by BWillie:
Which is still a HOF career. And if that arm guard was so valuable, everyone could have used it. Barry Bonds should be in the HOF period, in an era where almost everyone else used steroids anyway. He is a cheater, but he is a HOFer and the best baseball player I've ever seen.
Bonds was absolutely a Hall of Famer before the Juice, no doubt. He'll get in eventually when the veterans' committee decides to vote on it based on his earlier career. Throw out the stats after 1998, when he allegedly got jealous of the attention for McGuire/Sosa. The writers won't let him in, but the former players will eventually vote for him.
The arm guard was only allowed for guys who had an injury in the past that gave them a medical excuse to use the arm guard. He (and others) took advantage of that with over the top armor that allowed them to crowd the plate. The vast majority of guys in the league didn't have an injury that allowed them to use this equipment. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Ocotillo:
There's a reason why Ben Johnson was stripped of his 1988 gold in the Olympic 100 meters. Our international sporting society at large doesn't condone this.
The reason why Ben Johnson was stripped of gold in 1988 was because the Olympics had drug testing rules. Baseball didn't have those until literally 2006 (because, again, they have to be collectively bargained for and do not arise because of some silly meaningless memo written by a commissioner looking to cover his ass while not really giving a damn one way or the other).
Of course, the irony of stripping Johnson of the gold is that the entire rest of the 1988 100m field was later found to have been on PEDs. :-) [Reply]
Originally Posted by Megatron96:
I accidentally hit the submit button early, but I don't want to drag this out so here's the end of my post above:
Personally, I don't believe that having a lot of muscle automatically makes anyone a better hitter. I'd like to see some evidence of this at a scientific level if anyone disagrees.
But here's the real issue: the baseball HOF is really not about promoting the greatness of their players at all. Not anymore anyway, if it ever was. Really, it's just a political forum; "do we like this guy vs. that guy." Because let's be honest, if we can for a second:
Barry Bonds (a player I never liked that much in the first place) not only had the numbers or would have anyway, based on the projections listed above, but he also was one of the most feared hitters and players of his time to be in the HOF, period. No question, the end.
And at the end of the day, being a HOFer should be about both. Not how much some writer liked you when you were playing.
If he doesn't get in because everyone THINKS he took 'roids, it's all a bunch of politically driven bullshit that has absolutely nothing to do with the game of baseball anyway, and they should just shut the door on the hall and burn it to the ground.
Peace.
Noted PED user Ortiz just got voted in his first year over over Bonds and Clemens (who are now off the ballot after 10 years), so it's quite obvious this charade for the past decade by the writers very much had nothing to do with PED use and everything to do with the fact that the writers simply didn't like them.
The HOF vote is purely a popularity contest now. Maybe it always was. [Reply]
Originally Posted by jd1020:
So they take a stand against steroids by not voting in Bonds or Clemens but Papi gets in. Nice.
That is laughable for sure. Ortiz was a Juicer, named in some of the same reports as guys like Sosa. But Ortiz is a likeable guy and part of the media these days, so they are willing to look the other way. Bonds & Clemens were jerks to the media during their playing career and have not cozied up with them after retirement. Typical hypocrisy from the media.
On the bright side if you are Bonds & Clemens, you should be able to get plenty of support from the players on the veterans' committee. If everyone suspects Ortiz was a juicer, how do you keep Bonds & Clemens out? They have a pretty compelling argument. [Reply]
Originally Posted by DRM08:
That is laughable for sure. Ortiz was a Juicer, named in some of the same reports as guys like Sosa. But Ortiz is a likeable guy and part of the media these days, so they are willing to look the other way. Bonds & Clemens were jerks to the media during their playing career and have not cozied up with them after retirement. Typical hypocrisy from the media.
On the bright side if you are Bonds & Clemens, you should be able to get plenty of support from the players on the veterans' committee. If everyone suspects Ortiz was a juicer, how do you keep Bonds & Clemens out? They have a pretty compelling argument.
What is there to suspect about Ortiz? He failed a PED test in 2003 or some shit.
Its a fucking joke he just became a first ballot HoFer and they are going to sit there and say Bonds and Clemens aren't worthy of being inducted. [Reply]
ARod also got 170+ less votes than Ortiz in his first year on the ballot. Both PED users, one a vastly superior player to the other, but the inferior one gets in and the superior one is down around 30%.
I don't have a dog in the steroids players getting in or not. I get why some wouldn't vote them in. I disagree, but get it. But the hypocrisy of voting Ortiz in first ballot is insane.
Originally Posted by jd1020:
What is there to suspect about Ortiz? He failed a PED test in 2003 or some shit.
Its a fucking joke he just became a first ballot HoFer and they are going to sit there and say Bonds and Clemens aren't worthy of being inducted.
Well there was an anonymous report from the New York Times that Ortiz was one of 100+ guys including Sosa who failed a test. But then the commissioner came out a few years ago and said Ortiz has never failed a test, so they muddied the water for him enough to "justify" the votes.
That said, KC Connection is right that we can just call it a popularity contest at this point. Curt Schilling got left out even though he deserved to get in. They didn't like him as a person, which has nothing to do with his performance on the field. If we are going down this path, Ty Cobb should be thrown out. [Reply]
Originally Posted by DRM08:
Well there was an anonymous report from the New York Times that Ortiz was one of 100+ guys including Sosa who failed a test. But then the commissioner came out a few years ago and said Ortiz has never failed a test, so they muddied the water for him enough to "justify" the votes.
That said, KC Connection is right that we can just call it a popularity contest at this point. Curt Schilling got left out even though he deserved to get in. They didn't like him as a person, which has nothing to do with his performance on the field. If we are going down this path, Ty Cobb should be thrown out.
That is not what the commissioner said. Ortiz's failed test came in 2003. He looked into it himself and said he would come out with further details about his failed test which he never has. The commissioner said that he hadn't failed a test since 2004.
2004 is the year they started with their policy because they had so many positive tests in 2003. It was suppose to be confidential but Papi's name got leaked. He's a fucking juicer just like everyone else and the fact that Barry Bonds doesnt get in and fucking Papi is first ballot is the most hypocritical thing imaginable. Every voter who voted for Papi and not Bonds/Clemens should be stripped of their vote. [Reply]
Originally Posted by jd1020:
That is not what the commissioner said. Ortiz's failed test came in 2003. He looked into it himself and said he would come out with further details about his failed test which he never has. The commissioner said that he hadn't failed a test since 2004.
Clearly there are voters using it as an excuse to support Ortiz. It's the only explanation for their approach with Ortiz compared to the others. [Reply]
Originally Posted by smithandrew051:
No one seems to care that practically all of the old timers were doped up on greenies. It’s just part of that era.
Same with the steroid era. Practically all of the greats were using. The ones in the HOF just didn’t get caught.
Put them all in. If you aren’t going to, then the League should just ban all of them for life and not give the voters the option.
Also, how much of the revenue generated from the Steroid Era has MLB given back?
This....greenies...before that it was booze. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Mephistopheles Janx:
Dumb take. If they are in they are in... I can't go back an get people kicked out of the HOF with absolutely zero concrete proof the individual did what they did. If they admit to using... I'm good with them being ousted.
THAT SAID... there is zero reason to entertain rewarding cheaters going forward just because they got away with it in the past. We don't want to encourage this type of behavior in sport with the younger people who are moving on to college/semi-pro/pro ball. Hallowed records shouldn't fall because a dude is a cheating bag of shit.
Hank Aaron = Home Run King
Barry Bong = Cheating, drugged up, pregnant wife beating piece of shit.
Steroids weren't banned...so he didnt cheat. [Reply]
