Originally Posted by Chris Meck:
Spags had 6 ****ing rookies in his top 12 guys. That's a HUGE difference.
Andy has ONE this year, and 4 guys that have a year in the system. It's not remotely comparable. They already know what everyone but Rice can do.
And I disagree that EVERYTHING hinges on Toney staying healthy. Everything hinges on Mahomes staying healthy. Anything and everything else is workable.
Juju was solid for us last year, but totally unspectacular. There's no reason to expect any great drop-off. Hardman was out half the year. We're not missing some great all-pro guys or anything.
It's entirely reasonable to expect the guys in the second year of their careers and all of the guys in their second year in this system to all pick up the slack. It's a DEEP room, so say all who are actually involved, and it's going to be fine.
Spags does this every year. He’s always messing around with his rotations throughout the season. It’s generally accepted to do this on defense. It doesn’t make him stupid. It’s just realistic to expect that with this much uncertainty even great coaches won’t have all the answers right away and will make some mistakes along the way. But An offense on the other hand is going to benefit more from timing and stability.
Everything doesn’t hinge on Toney staying healthy. But the performance of the wr room largely does. Im glad to get skyy reps but WR1 seems a stretch if he needs to fill for Toney. The concerns about Toney and Ross staying healthy are very legit. Expecting rashee to contribute right away is a stretch. Expecting Mvs to be anything more than a boom/bust role playing deep threat is a stretch. Expecting Watson and James, who were both easily signed for peanuts, to elevate any more than bottom of the WR depth is a high expectation.
Of course mahomes will make it work. I don’t think people will be this laid back if we haven’t worked out our wr kinks by the time we face Philly, buffalo, cincy. [Reply]
Originally Posted by kysirsoze:
Lose Tyreek: offense improves.
Lose JJSS and Hardman: BRINK OF DISASTER
I don’t believe anyone is saying that. Going into last year, you could lean on the fact that while new to the offense, Juju and MVS were veteran receivers to pair with Kelce and Hardman. Going into this year, nearly every receiver has a large question mark. Toney = Injury. Skyy = Relatively Unknown. MVS = AFC Championship or Super Bowl? Rice = Unknown + Reid doesn’t play rookie WR’s.
Could it work out like the DB’s did last year? Sure. But it would be nice to have another proven vet WR to lean on especially early in the season. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Chris Meck:
You'd have a legit argument if these were all first year guys, and not that four of them are now in year two of this offense. There will be LESS confusion for all in your top 5 guys other than Rice than last year, with absolutely no legitimate reason to think otherwise besides general pessimism or pining for Deandre Hopkins.
To expect Toney to play a full season is probably unrealistic. If he goes down for several weeks, there will be some confusion for certain.
Even if he doesn't, as CZ said, these guys will be moved all over formations, given more route combinations, etc. Skyy will be given a lot more responsibility than just blocking assignments.
Skyy struggled most of last season, it's just a fact. It's a fact that he caught 1 or 0 balls in 11 games last year. it's a fact that this isn't that unusual for 2nd year WRs in Andy's offense either. To expect Skyy to just blossom into his prime this season is probably a little optimistic. i expect he'll be better in 2023, but not 100% polished. Sorry, but I just don't see him becoming Larry Fitzgerald in 2023.
MVS will do exactly what he's been doing for about four years now.
Rice will do rookie things, make some mistakes, probably drop a few balls which will draw the ire of GDT CPers all season, because they'll inevitably turn a couple drops into a career-long issue. But he'll be brought along slowly, just like everyone else.
James will have a decent but not exceptional season.
Watson will do pretty much what he did last year.
No one else in the WR room is worth mentioning at this point.
This isn't pining for DHop, or being pessimistic; it's called being realistic.
The floor is Toney plays 7 games and doesn't come back for the playoffs. Skyy repeats his less than stellar performance from last season. Rice can't separate, can't hang onto the ball. James is no more than advertised; a rotational slot WR. Watson is really just a ST guy masquerading as a WR. Neither Ross pans out. That's the worst case scenario. Which I haven't gotten near in my posts.
The best case is:
Toney plays the full season and the playoffs, goes for 1,600 yards/16 TDs.
Skyy=1,400 yards/8 Tds
Rice=800 yds/6 TDs
MVS=900 yds/6 TDs
Justyn Ross=700 yds/6 TDs
John Ross=800 yds/7 TDs
blahblahblah
Quite clearly, I've chosen to believe that our WR group will achieve something in the middle.
If that comes across as pessimistic, that's a 'you' problem, friend. [Reply]
Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501:
its not pessimism as much as it is realism that this WR room wont be figured out overnight. It will take a full season if not more. Some young guys will fail, some will do well, and some will show promise but also rough patches along the way. .
During that time we’re asking mahomes to participate in a science experiment. Constantly changing wr rotations, stretches of games where we use the wrong WRs which means they won’t get open or they’ll frustrate mahomes by missing their spots. All while carrying substantial injury risk which creates more chaos especially if toney gets hurt.
And it doesn’t have to be that way. A stable WR1 puts toney in the slot on a snap count and reduces risk that toney gets hurt and forced skyy to be WR1. It means easing rashee in which is realistic in a Reid offense. It means giving Justyn a year to prove his body can take a full year of practice let alone contact. most importantly it gives mahomes stability to have a rock in kelce and WR1 while all the chaos underneath gets sorted out. Mahomes is a great teammate but as an example, if our wr room is still chaotic by the time we play Miami, do we think that won’t sting mahomes when tyreek gloats about how much we needed him? Do we think fans will be nearly this casual about experimenting when we ultimately play Philly, cincy, buffalo in games we need to be at our very best and critics are finding any small slip up as an excuse to knock mahomes down?
WR room will be figured out? What's that mean? You have to figure out Patrick Mahomes and Andy Reid and not just one, but both of them if you want to have a chance to stop this offense. Defenses have to figure out a way to stop the most brilliant offensive mind that this sport has ever seen and then you have to find a way to stop the best QB/player this sport has ever seen.
You see, if you just figure out Andy's scheme and how to match up and know beforehand all the little details and intricacies of each play, then Mahomes can still beat you because he can extend plays and make throws that pretty much no one else can. You have to hope that every single player on defense is exactly where they should be, because even a lineman out of place allows Mahomes to tuck it and run for 20 yds. You have to be perfect every play or else PMII will see your mistake and capitalize. [Reply]
Originally Posted by kysirsoze:
Lose Tyreek: offense improves.
Lose JJSS and Hardman: BRINK OF DISASTER
No, we will be fine. Not at all in a panic. But our offense didn’t get better because we lost tyreek. It got better because we finally addressed WR depth. People forget that once teams tripled down on kelce and tyreek, not only were our WRs not getting open, they were killing drives with drops and an absurd number of dropped passes leading to INTs. These WRs are now barely hanging on to other rosters. I don’t think we should be so casual to accept that mahomes can just elevate talent around him. We just know that this offense has a much higher ceiling than we realize. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Megatron96:
To expect Toney to play a full season is probably unrealistic. If he goes down for several weeks, there will be some confusion for certain.
Even if he doesn't, as CZ said, these guys will be moved all over formations, given more route combinations, etc. Skyy will be given a lot more responsibility than just blocking assignments.
Skyy struggled most of last season, it's just a fact. It's a fact that he caught 1 or 0 balls in 11 games last year. it's a fact that this isn't that unusual for 2nd year WRs in Andy's offense either. To expect Skyy to just blossom into his prime this season is probably a little optimistic. i expect he'll be better in 2023, but not 100% polished. Sorry, but I just don't see him becoming Larry Fitzgerald in 2023.
MVS will do exactly what he's been doing for about four years now.
Rice will do rookie things, make some mistakes, probably drop a few balls which will draw the ire of GDT CPers all season, because they'll inevitably turn a couple drops into a career-long issue. But he'll be brought along slowly, just like everyone else.
James will have a decent but not exceptional season.
Watson will do pretty much what he did last year.
No one else in the WR room is worth mentioning at this point.
This isn't pining for DHop, or being pessimistic; it's called being realistic.
The floor is Toney plays 7 games and doesn't come back for the playoffs. Skyy repeats his less than stellar performance from last season. Rice can't separate, can't hang onto the ball. James is no more than advertised; a rotational slot WR. Watson is really just a ST guy masquerading as a WR. Neither Ross pans out. That's the worst case scenario. Which I haven't gotten near in my posts.
The best case is:
Toney plays the full season and the playoffs, goes for 1,600 yards/16 TDs.
Skyy=1,400 yards/8 Tds
Rice=800 yds/6 TDs
MVS=900 yds/6 TDs
Justyn Ross=700 yds/6 TDs
John Ross=800 yds/7 TDs
blahblahblah
Quite clearly, I've chosen to believe that our WR group will achieve something in the middle.
If that comes across as pessimistic, that's a 'you' problem, friend.
Lol your besr case scenario is 6200 yds and 49 TDs and that doesn't include Travis Kelce, any TE or RB. They'd give Mahomes 2 MVPs for that type of season. [Reply]
Originally Posted by TwistedChief:
If Mahomes can play at the highest of MVP levels every year and Kelce doesn’t slow down even a bit, then yes, we’ll be fine whomever you put out there at WR. But if teams are able to adjust, etc and slow Mahomes down even a little, the margin for error with our current WR room is thinner than I would want it to be. That’s all.
We can obviously win a SB
I still don't agree with this train of thought.
I mean, you are talking like this WR room doesn't have a ton of upside. Why do some of you act like Rice, Skyy, and Toney can't possibly be a great trio going forward?
You would think this is a high floor low ceiling group when it's actually the opposite. And I'm sorry, but I just don't see the low floor worst case scenario happening with Andy and Pat at the helm. The ceiling is MUCH more likely.
My only real concern is them hitting the ground running this year, but I have no doubt that they will be a very good group long term. [Reply]
Originally Posted by dlphg9:
WR room will be figured out? What's that mean? You have to figure out Patrick Mahomes and Andy Reid and not just one, but both of them if you want to have a chance to stop this offense. Defenses have to figure out a way to stop the most brilliant offensive mind that this sport has ever seen and then you have to find a way to stop the best QB/player this sport has ever seen.
You see, if you just figure out Andy's scheme and how to match up and know beforehand all the little details and intricacies of each play, then Mahomes can still beat you because he can extend plays and make throws that pretty much no one else can. You have to hope that every single player on defense is exactly where they should be, because even a lineman out of place allows Mahomes to tuck it and run for 20 yds. You have to be perfect every play or else PMII will see your mistake and capitalize.
As I’ve said mahomes and Reid can make any offense work. And work well.
Our offenses ceiling is way higher than it gets credit for. It’s not something where we should just settle for WRs that make it work.
Our margin of error will be slim against teams like buffalo and cincy that we’ve had mixed success against. You’re acting like it wasn’t just 2 years ago where our WRs were thudding everything off their hands and mahomes was frustrated at his WRs who kept running wrong routes. Mahomes/Reid are tremendous but that’s asking an awful lot of them.
And I don’t want to build the offense around mahomes doing magic tricks in the pocket because his WRs don’t get open all the time. Or around kelce getting clobbered because defenses don’t respect our WRs. [Reply]
Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501:
Spags does this every year. He’s always messing around with his rotations throughout the season. It’s generally accepted to do this on defense. It doesn’t make him stupid. It’s just realistic to expect that with this much uncertainty even great coaches won’t have all the answers right away and will make some mistakes along the way. But An offense on the other hand is going to benefit more from timing and stability.
Everything doesn’t hinge on Toney staying healthy. But the performance of the wr room largely does. Im glad to get skyy reps but WR1 seems a stretch if he needs to fill for Toney. The concerns about Toney and Ross staying healthy are very legit. Expecting rashee to contribute right away is a stretch. Expecting Mvs to be anything more than a boom/bust role playing deep threat is a stretch. Expecting Watson and James, who were both easily signed for peanuts, to elevate any more than bottom of the WR depth is a high expectation.
Of course mahomes will make it work. I don’t think people will be this laid back if we haven’t worked out our wr kinks by the time we face Philly, buffalo, cincy.
We didn't have a 'WR1' last season. Seemed to work out ok.
You guys are acting like this is a Todd Haley team quarterbacked by Matt Cassel and we're going to be lucky to get a wildcard. [Reply]
Originally Posted by dlphg9:
Lol your besr case scenario is 6200 yds and 49 TDs and that doesn't include Travis Kelce, any TE or RB. They'd give Mahomes 2 MVPs for that type of season.
Originally Posted by Chris Meck:
We didn't have a 'WR1' last season. Seemed to work out ok.
You guys are acting like this is a Todd Haley team quarterbacked by Matt Cassel and we're going to be lucky to get a wildcard.
Zilla is fucking retarded and keeps repeating the same stupid shit over and over about the WR group. He's not even worth responding to at this point. [Reply]
Richie James was added to increase the floor of the WR room. Even if Toney misses half the season to injury and Moore doesn’t improve much, the drop-off from Smith-Schuster to James is less than you’d think in terms of function in the offense.
Hardman was healthy for a number of games equal to the worst case scenario or floor imagined for Toney, so it’s hard to chalk up much “miss” on that to me.
I think the Chiefs have added a lot of versatility to the WR room.
They’ve got quick-twitch guys who can uncover vs man, break tackles and YAC it up. They’ve zone beaters in Valdez-Scantling and James and potentially Rice. They’ve got a guy who wins vs both in Kelce. And with Rice they have a WR who can win 1x1 downfield.
They just have a lot more ways to attack Ds.
That versatility is the key to the offense moving forward. [Reply]
