Originally Posted by staylor26:
MVS has absolutely regressed, but unles you had a crystal ball shoved up your ass, it's really just luck that you get to say "I told you so" now.
Sorry that him stepping up big time in the AFCCG bought him some good will going into his second season with the Chiefs for many of us.
LMFAO
"Regressed"
That mother fucker is doing exactly what he did last season. Drop passes. I didn't need a crystal ball to know we would be getting more of the same this season. Especially as that was the knock on him coming here to begin with!
Dude had 1 good game last season. It was a big one, yes. But... still just 1. That one game had y'all fuckers talking about how he isn't overpaid for his production and that he is a key component of this offense.
/im happy to provide you with chocolate syrup or a cherry jam made from cherries on my farm to spread over my ass to make that kiss sweeter. [Reply]
Why wouldn't they have felt like they could run it back with the group from last year - which Mahomes won MVP with - and they wouldn't be at worst a top 10-15 offense?
If you told me we were having these offensive problems last year, I would've 100% agreed with you. I thought we were going to be very average offensively last year, but we had the best offense in the league by almost every metric and really just swapped JuJu for Rice.
Is it really hard to see that Veach felt this was a reasonable plan?
Certainly it hasn't worked as intended, but I'm not sure why you're having difficulty seeing the logic of it. [Reply]
Originally Posted by TwistedChief:
Why wouldn't they have felt like they could run it back with the group from last year - which Mahomes won MVP with - and they wouldn't be at worst a top 10-15 offense?
If you told me we were having these offensive problems last year, I would've 100% agreed with you. I thought we were going to be very average offensively last year, but we had the best offense in the league by almost every metric and really just swapped JuJu for Rice.
Is it really hard to see that Veach felt this was a reasonable plan?
Certainly it hasn't worked as intended, but I'm not sure why you're having difficulty seeing the logic of it.
With a bigger/better investment at WR in the past two offseasons, we’d have to also be content with getting worse somewhere else.
Picks hit. Picks miss. Volume is the answer to addressing almost any issues.
Look at our investment at LB and how much better that group is from 3 years ago. Same with the secondary. Same with the DL. Same with the OL. It’s fair to argue diminishing returns on those other positions, but at least we’ve nailed most of those. It’s not a total waste.
Unfortunately, we have a finite amount of picks and cap space. WR (and to a lesser extent RB) have suffered. It worked like a charm last year.
If the WR room is similar next year, I’ll be very concerned. I think we’re due for a sizable investment there in the offseason.
We just have to hope we can patch things together for another Super Bowl run.
If we can’t, I guess we’ll just have to find a way to be happy with winning 2 of the last 5 Super Bowls. [Reply]
Originally Posted by TwistedChief: Why wouldn't they have felt like they could run it back with the group from last year - which Mahomes won MVP with - and they wouldn't be at worst a top 10-15 offense?
If you told me we were having these offensive problems last year, I would've 100% agreed with you. I thought we were going to be very average offensively last year, but we had the best offense in the league by almost every metric and really just swapped JuJu for Rice.
Is it really hard to see that Veach felt this was a reasonable plan?
Certainly it hasn't worked as intended, but I'm not sure why you're having difficulty seeing the logic of it.
The challenge is to stay one step ahead. Not just bring back the same players because it worked the season before. They improved the tackle positions (but overpaid Taylor). The other skilled positions stayed the same. I think Toney/Moore/MVS were enough of a red flag last season to expect similar struggles in 2023. The offense worked in 2022 because Kelce and Juju worked well together at reading defenses. Plus, McKinnon was a much larger threat in the passing game. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Gary Cooper:
The challenge is to stay one step ahead. Not just bring back the same players because it worked the season before. They improved the tackle positions (but overpaid Taylor). The other skilled positions stayed the same. I think Toney/Moore/MVS were enough of a red flag last season to expect similar struggles in 2023. The offense worked in 2022 because Kelce and Juju worked well together at reading defenses. Plus, McKinnon was a much larger threat in the passing game.
Originally Posted by TwistedChief:
Why wouldn't they have felt like they could run it back with the group from last year - which Mahomes won MVP with - and they wouldn't be at worst a top 10-15 offense?
If you told me we were having these offensive problems last year, I would've 100% agreed with you. I thought we were going to be very average offensively last year, but we had the best offense in the league by almost every metric and really just swapped JuJu for Rice.
Is it really hard to see that Veach felt this was a reasonable plan?
Certainly it hasn't worked as intended, but I'm not sure why you're having difficulty seeing the logic of it.
Even if I disagreed with the plan I got why we did it.
But some of us raised the WR1 flag long ago. This was exaggerated to mean "oh you want to pay Justin Jefferson money?" No. We're sitting in a thread discussing a man who was paid $13m with no long term contract attached. Not getting a bandaid even if it was thielen for a little cheaper is headscratching.
Because if you look at the thread announcing toney as WR1, the concern was there from the beginning. Our best option at WR1 was toney, a guy who can't stay on the field and even still a huge bet in unseen upside. The next best option was a rookie who most people predicted would barely see the field under Andy Reid because all the other guys play off a WR1 but none popped as anyone who could truly take the mantle (except Justyn Ross as an extreme long shot). We could've band aided a WR1 the same way we plugged Donovan smith in. We just chose not to and I still don't get it. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Gary Cooper:
The challenge is to stay one step ahead. Not just bring back the same players because it worked the season before. They improved the tackle positions (but overpaid Taylor). The other skilled positions stayed the same. I think Toney/Moore/MVS were enough of a red flag last season to expect similar struggles in 2023. The offense worked in 2022 because Kelce and Juju worked well together at reading defenses. Plus, McKinnon was a much larger threat in the passing game.
Sure, but the challenge is to stay ahead with 53 guys, offense, defense, and special teams.
And when you have a mostly young position group, it's reasonable to expect them to improve, not regress. Roster management depends on that.
Clearly, it hasn't happened, but acting like it's unreasonable to expect a step forward from young guys in year two isn't fair play.
And the complete dumpster fire that MVS has become wasn't apparent either, he's gotten way worse at everything, and Watson is a WR4 or 5 type but has also largely gotten worse. These guys aren't old enough to be regressing. So it's weird, alright.
I thought we'd be fine if one of the three swings Veach took at WR worked out; unfortunately, it looks like the rookie is the one so it's not quite fine as he's learning.
But I tell you, I'd have Rice, Toney, and Hardman on the field every damned down. Simplify whatever you have to to do it, but those are the three guys that can actually make a play. [Reply]
Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501:
Even if I disagreed with the plan I got why we did it.
But some of us raised the WR1 flag long ago. This was exaggerated to mean "oh you want to pay Justin Jefferson money?" No. We're sitting in a thread discussing a man who was paid $13m with no long term contract attached. Not getting a bandaid even if it was thielen for a little cheaper is headscratching.
Because if you look at the thread announcing toney as WR1, the concern was there from the beginning. Our best option at WR1 was toney, a guy who can't stay on the field and even still a huge bet in unseen upside. The next best option was a rookie who most people predicted would barely see the field under Andy Reid because all the other guys play off a WR1 but none popped as anyone who could truly take the mantle (except Justyn Ross as an extreme long shot). We could've band aided a WR1 the same way we plugged Donovan smith in. We just chose not to and I still don't get it.
It's all a little puzzling.
They thought Toney was WR1 material when he's never demonstrated the ability to stay healthy. He was drafted in the 1st round based on one collegiate season, and the team that drafted him gave up on him in less than 2 years, but we felt he was instant WR1...?
They signed MVS and expected him to do things other than what he can do. He didn't take a step this year, he is who we thought he was.
They thought Moore was WR2 material, when he seems not to be NFL material.
They let Hardman go, who was better than Moore, and then gave up a pick to get him back as a band-aid for a half a season. He has yet to band-aid anything.
They signed James, who seemingly projected to the Hardman role, but he's just another undersized WR /special teamer.
All those moves seem very far-fetched, in hindsight. This is how you end up with Justin Watson as your #1... [Reply]
Originally Posted by Chris Meck:
Sure, but the challenge is to stay ahead with 53 guys, offense, defense, and special teams.
And when you have a mostly young position group, it's reasonable to expect them to improve, not regress. Roster management depends on that.
Clearly, it hasn't happened, but acting like it's unreasonable to expect a step forward from young guys in year two isn't fair play.
And the complete dumpster fire that MVS has become wasn't apparent either, he's gotten way worse at everything, and Watson is a WR4 or 5 type but has also largely gotten worse. These guys aren't old enough to be regressing. So it's weird, alright.
I thought we'd be fine if one of the three swings Veach took at WR worked out; unfortunately, it looks like the rookie is the one so it's not quite fine as he's learning.
But I tell you, I'd have Rice, Toney, and Hardman on the field every damned down. Simplify whatever you have to to do it, but those are the three guys that can actually make a play.
But it doesn't change that the chiefs either believed they could function without a WR1 or more likely scenario they banked big time on toney or rookie rice to run away with it. And both scenarios were HUGE gambles. Because nobody projected skyy as WR1. At best people thought he could be a slot option.
And mvs and Watson have just regressed to the mean. They are who they always were. Mvs is making the same damn mistakes with the same lengthy disappearing acts as last year, he just doesn't have Kelce and juju eating up 20 targets a game to hide it. Watson is the same guy as he was last year and who couldn't even make Brady's roster for the price of a ham sandwich. He is just forced into more opportunities which gives way more opportunity to show his weaknesses. [Reply]
Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501:
But it doesn't change that the chiefs either believed they could function without a WR1 or more likely scenario they banked big time on toney or rookie rice to run away with it. And both scenarios were HUGE gambles. Because nobody projected skyy as WR1. At best people thought he could be a slot option.
And mvs and Watson have just regressed to the mean. They are who they always were. Mvs is making the same damn mistakes with the same lengthy disappearing acts as last year, he just doesn't have Kelce and juju eating up 20 targets a game to hide it. Watson is the same guy as he was last year and who couldn't even make Brady's roster for the price of a ham sandwich. He is just forced into more opportunities which gives way more opportunity to show his weaknesses.
Obviously it was a risk. Obviously it's not worked out as hoped. You have to take those risks, like the '22 secondary. And now look at that group!
I'm not going to rehash and second guess now. All that matters is what happens moving forward.
If you want to take a win on the 'should've signed a WR1' go for it.
I wasn't opposed to signing a Thielen type, just on paying top dollar for an over 30, often injured OBJ/Hopkins type. [Reply]
