I've been saying this for the last couple of years, but it bears repeating.

People are WAY too hung up on positions and what they think are 'prototypes' for those positions.

When Spags ruined Brady and Co.'s perfect season in that super bowl, he moved everyone on the line around all over the place.

In the same way that Matthieu is not really a 'safety', neither does it matter what you want to call Chris Jones when he's not lined up as a typical DT.

Just like we don't really utilize a prototypical slot receiver on offense.

Doesn't matter.

It's about putting guys with unique talents in position to use those abilities.

Don't worry about it. These guys know what they're doing.
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He's been here for two seasons. I think the best thing to compare Spags' incoming 2021 defense is the 2019 and 2020 seasons.

And in those seasons, the guys have generally not been cogs you could move around however you want.

It was in 2019, when you'd see a lot of Kpass as a DT in obvious rushing situations so that Spags could get a NASCAR package going. But Jones never played outside, and Clark never played inside. Really they only flexed Kpass and Ogbah.

I've watched a ton of 2020 film the past month and a half, and 2020 was different. Spags still had his NASCAR package, but it was structured different.

In 2019, Spags liked three DEs and Jones. Almost always Kpass as the DT rotating down.

But in 2020, we had the Turk Wharton discovery, and Spags' NASCAR package was usually two DEs and two DTs (almost always Jones and Wharton), almost every time, if you don't count the myriad of blitzes he put together.

The vast majority of time he put together that NASCAR DL, it was with the DTs in the middle and the DEs out wide. Though he did shift it around occasionally.

That's not what we're talking about here, so don't pretend this is Business As Usual. This is (likely) not 2020 Chris Jones, who is a DT who is only a DE once in a blue moon in NASCAR packages. This is also likely not 2016-2018 Chris Jones, who was a 3-4 DE full time.

This is (likely) Chris Jones playing a chunk of his snaps as a legit 4-3 base DE.
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Again, you're hung up on your concept of position and prototypes.

You're exactly who I'm talking about.

Wharton's still here. Now Reed is here. And so is Jones.

So yeah, you'll see a chunk of snaps with those three and Clark. Why is this a problem for you? Why isn't it simply a way of getting your best players on the field at the same time?

legit 4-3 base DE? We're in a base 4-3 like a third of the time. We're usually in a heavy nickel type or dime defense with like 4 safeties. I think you're looking at things through an outdated conventional lens when that's not really how this team operates (or really, the NFL in 2021, but KC is certainly on the front edge of innovation I think we'd all have to agree-particularly on offense.)

Kpass was like 290 lbs, huge for a 4-3 DE, so yeah they moved him inside some on passing downs. Why is this like...groundbreaking news for you?

Obviously, they've liked the positional flexibility of having Jones be able to play inside and outside.

Is this just another thing with you, like not liking Veach's tier system?

Because it seems like it.

I think these guys have shown me that 1)they know more about football than I do, 2) They've earned the right to implement their plans before I'm going to criticize and 3) They are constantly innovating from the front office on down and nobody really knows what they're going to do, so wringing our hands about stuff in March, and May, and June when we have no real idea what they're going to do is silly.
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Hey Chris,

I'm not remotely sure if you are properly processing the points I'm making here. Like, I'm literally not sure if you're reading my posts or if you're scanning them and hitting reply.

You say: "of COURSE they moved Kpass in -- why is this news!?" and then you gas on a bit.

I literallly did not say it was news, I was simply describing the system that we're sliding Jones into, in order to set the foundation for my perspective. So I literally don't know where your exasperation is coming from on that point -- or on many of your points.

Tell you what, it's OTAs and we won't know Jones' role until the snaps are live. So let's start with the basics here.

What do you think Jones' role is going to be? Because we're just reading tea leaves at this point.

I think we're looking at him playing roughly 35-45% of his snaps at DE on the strong side. The rest will be in his usual interior habitat.

Do you agree with that prediction, or not?
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No, man, I'm reading your posts.

and I think you're looking at everything through an incorrect lens. You're looking at this all wrong.

You're looking at this like we run a typical base 4-3 and concluding that this is a weird personnel fit.

And I'm saying 1)no we don't really 2)Spags loves versatility to exploit mismatches 3)Spags historically has moved his best 4 pass rushers inside and outside so there is precedent 4)This is mostly much ado about nothing.

You're not going to see Jonesy lining up in a wide 9. I seriously doubt that.

He's been lining up in a DE spot occasionally in the past, and we'll see it more frequently this season.

This is not something to get all worked up about. It will happen when the Chiefs feel like it's a mismatch worth exploiting; and it won't when they don't think it is. It's literally another chess piece for the coordinator to play with. It's a big-assed Honey Badger on the line.

Don't get so hung up on the position labels. They're not as cut and dried as what they were twenty years ago. Just like calling Mathieu a safety is not really accurate. Sometimes he is, sometimes he's a slot corner, sometimes he's a freakin' linebacker.

Now sometimes Jones will be inside, sometimes outside, he'll be something the offensive line will have to locate and deal with on every snap.

I really see no downside here.
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Direckshun, can you tell me why you think this plan the Chiefs have for Jones isn't going to work out?

The dude had consecutive years of double digit sacks as a 3-4 end. As a 4-3 end, he's just getting moved over one fucking gap. Big whoop. Yeah, for some guys that's a big deal. It would be stupid for the Chiefs to ask that out of Derrick Nnadi. But when you're big and athletic and you've basically for all intents and purposes DONE THAT JOB for the first three seasons of your career, that's not a monumental task.

This isn't OL. We're not asking a G to move over and play OT. We're taking a player who has a track record of mauling shit while lined up in a variety of positions and telling him to go blow more shit up.

It has a good chance of working out. And if it doesn't? Well shit, Chris Jones will surely never be able to move back to the interior! At least not until he has a full offseason of work at that position!
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Yeah man, I've been really trying not get irritated but it seems like yet another terrible football take.

Positional flexibility is a GOOD THING.

It's what makes Mathieu valuable, for instance.

Chess pieces that you can move around to take advantage of match-ups are a GOOD THING to have.

I see this as a way to get our best D-linemen on the field at the same time. I really don't see the problem.
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He just wrecks so much shit inside I'd rather him do that and get someone telse to do it outside. But hopefully he continues to do it outside.
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Moving a DT to DE is actually more challenging than moving a guard to tackle.

There have been a fair number of guards that have played decent tackle over the course of NFL history. That's why a number of guards have done it over the years and virtually zero DTs have effectively done the move to DE.

I can't believe I'm typing this on a football message board to a group of men who follow football as a primary hobby, but 3-4 DE and 4-3 DE are completely different positions that require completely different skillsets.

Namely: 3-4 DEs primarily match up against guards. They're essentially tackles. Therefore they can afford to be big bodied bears because you're fighting in tighter spaces, which puts less of a premium on the bendy kind of speed-to-power mechanics that you need to challenge an NFL tackle's outside shoulder. Instead, you need to be able to win in the phone booth -- which Chris Jones is a Top 3 talent at doing.

To directly answer your question:

He is incredibly strong and incredibly quick for a guy his size with stupid long arms, but those talents could very well dwindle against NFL tackles who are bigger, longer, quicker, and stronger. Tackles are better football players than guards. You beat them by threatening their outside shoulder and then countering them into oblivion. Jones cannot threaten their outside shoulder -- he's never had the job of bending the edge or converting speed to power. And since tackles will simply not worry about their outside shoulder, they can convert their combat with Jones into a phone booth battle they're built to win. Jones will win some snaps, I'm sure, but the percentage will be so much lower on the edge against tackles than it will be along the interior against inferior guards who have no chance against him.

Jarran Reed helps some, but he is a different kind of passrusher. He can push the pocket and eventually swallow up plays if his teammates do their jobs well. He's also stupendous against the run. But Jones can end plays in the first 2.5 seconds with a great rush.

I'm of the opinion that when you have a guy on your team who is the best in the league at a really important position, you don't move him to another position.

But that seems to be what we're doing, at least part time.

Time will tell, I suppose.
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You're kind of making a mountain out of a molehill with this transition. No, there aren't many interior guys in the NFL who can bounce out to DE in a 4-3 and have success. Jones is one of the few with the explosion and quickness to play the position while letting his size be an advantage. I know what the fuck a 3-4 DE does, dude. Jones was a 1-gap 5-technique guy, so he saw plenty of matchups (not to mention double teams FFS) involving the OT when he played in a 3-4. Again, the textbook says this is how these positions go, but this is the modern NFL, where unreal humans like Chris Jones exist. It's a bit of a roll of the dice, but we have an entire regular season to figure out whether it will work, need more time to gel, or just get scrapped and go back to keeping Jones on the inside and rotating guys through those spots. But they're clearly keen on rolling the dice in the name of getting more of those fantastic DTs of ours on the field, and I applaud this move.

Until one of the young guys like Danna turns into a solid starting DE where it becomes a hindrance to take him off the field, we should absolutely be exploring these kinds of alignments. If it works, it has potential to really be a nightmare for OCs.
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So I do agree with your last paragraph -- that with the roster we have right now, we need to start being creative with the talent on the roster to figure out that other DE position. That's why I've been groaning for months about the DE2 position, for the record: the talent we have at DE outside of Frank Clark (himself a troublesome situation) is less than awesome, and now it's forcing our hand to experiment with moving a Top 3 player out of position. (It's a change that Jones has been actively begging for, so that is a little encouraging, but still.)

Anyway, I don't think this is a roll of the dice. Jones has shown up to camp in a "Spags DE" bodyshape, per reports. I think we're legit putting our eggs in this basket, and I do think it's been a plan for a while, which is why we didn't make a bigtime push for a DE in the draft or free agency. I think they're banking on this working, so I don't think this is a mere molehill.

Let me ask you what I asked Chris in a previous post: what do you think we're looking at here, as we read the OTA tea leaves? My general opinion is that we're looking at Jones playing strongside DE in the base roughly 35-45% of his snaps. You?
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I don't really care how much they play Jones at DE. It's going to depend on matchup, and I don't view the expected percentage or breakdown of snaps at each line position to be relevant.

And I'm not worried about Jones and his "Spags DE" body shape. He can still easily play most of his snaps on the interior if need be. What weight was he playing at last year? What's he going to play at this year? They're not going to ask him to drop 30 lbs or something ridiculous like that. And again... if the Chiefs decide that Jones at DE just isn't working out, they have the entire regular season to make that decision to just keep him at DT.
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Think about how much trouble a Bull rushing Chris Jones is going to give basically every RT in football. He’s going to threaten the inside shoulder when aligned at RT so well. And he’s quick enough to get around the edge if they over shade inside.

Sets you up for a lot of success with stunts and blitzes behind him.

It’s not an every spot/team thing. But Wharton and Nnadi are better than almost all second true DE options KC has right now. It makes to flex Jobes. He’s still a threat and still sets up advantages for teammates.

The run D will be better with Nnadi and Reed inside most downs. And a pass rush of Clark/Jones/Reed/Charlton still looks pretty salty to me (or even a 3-3-5 or 3-2-6 alignment with Gay or Bolton as a blitzer and no Charlton.
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Listening to Nate Taylor on the Times Ours Pod, he really made a point to mention that Jarran Reed afforded them the opportunity to really see this through. We didn’t have a true DT with pass rush ability + a big enough frame to run defend. Saunders was the only one outside Jones with that potential last yet but it didn’t happen.

Now that Reed is here, we still keep that strong inside presence and can do a lot of different things.

I don’t think this move is without flaws though. I think we need to be aware of Jones lack of speed on things like the option or contain. Facing a team with an athletic QB like the Ravens and Seahawks makes me not want pull that trigger bc they’ll just run around the guy easily whereas Mike Danna is extremely smart and athletic enough to stop those
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They're not going to go with these big sets exclusively against guys like Lamar Jackson. They've pretty much shut the guy down the last 2 years with guys like Okafor on the outside. They know what they are doing.
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