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Saccopoo Memorial Draft Forum>I am not a fan of Veach's "tier" approach.
Direckshun 09:02 AM 05-02-2021
The idea that he has players in layered tiers is not new, of course.

But here's the problem with it: in any tier you care to look at, the most valuable positions get drafted first, because of course they should. Quarterback, tackle, wide receiver, passrusher.

The last players to be chosen in any tier are going to be the lowest value players.

Running back. Linebacker. Interior offensive line.

And here we are. That's been the Chiefs last four picks in the 1st and 2nd rounds of the draft.

It's just not a great approach when you're always at the end of the round, which the Chiefs always will be under Reid and Mahomes. You need to be able to be more flexible.

The Chiefs selected a linebacker (which we do desperately need) and a center (which we kinda needed) when there were really good players in a lower tier still on the board.

How much better is Humphrey going to be than Blythe? Really?

Because remember that when we struggle to get a passrush in December, January, and February. Remember that in the Super Bowl when the Bucs run out the exact same coverage that blanketed us the first time and we still don't have a WR2 that can break free of 1 on 1 coverage. Remember that when, god forbid, one of our corners go down with injury in week 7 and we have to watch Rashad Fenton get raked for 8 weeks.

That being said, the Chiefs did get better this weekend. They just could have gotten a lot better this weekend, with how sexy the board looked when they were up to pick.

Pick by pick reviews.

LB Nick Bolton, Missouri -- The Chiefs probably have the best linebacking corps now that they've had in a decade. Hitchens finally seems to understand the system, Gay looked really solid all year and came on until his injury, and Bolton's going to be really good. He's a smart player with limited athleticism, so really a perfect Spags linebacker. But he may be a two-down player, and I see a lot of Kawika Mitchell in him -- neither of those are deserving of the 2nd round pick we spent. C-

C Creed Humphrey, Oklahoma -- I think Humphrey has Pro Bowl upside, and honestly the Chiefs track record on 2nd round centers is stellar with Mitch Morse and Rodney Hudson. I think he's going to be a starter here for 10 years. I'd had preferred other players, but this was a good get. A-

DE Joshua Kaindoh, Florida State -- I really don't like this pick, and only talked myself into it the day of the draft because we are so desperate at the position. Kaindoh has every bit of the size you need, but he just has no feel for the game. This is a Demetrius-Harris-sized project. Harris turned out to be pretty good, but it took us four years to get there. Kaindoh may yield the same returns at a different position. D+

TE Noah Gray, Duke -- I really hope the loss of Anthony Sherman didn't mess with our heads badly enough to take this guy, as the team later was communicating he could be a flex fullback. It's hard for me to get too worked up about Gray, however, one way or the other. I think he's fine, but a poor fit, but the 5th round on was just garbage in terms of options. C+

WR Cornell Powell, Clemson -- The questions with Powell entirely will be between the ears. He is already physically maxed out and is pretty great with the ball in his hands. I imagine he will peak out in a couple seaons as a WR3 in our offense, but if the Chiefs continue to fail to find a really good WR2, he could ascend to a shrug-WR2, someone to play the position non-pathetically until we find the next Sammy Watkins. I think his ceiling is Chris Conley, which is nothing to write home about, but that's a really great get in a draft this garbage. B+

OG Tre Smith, Tennessee -- Home run. No question. This is why you don't burn $80m on a guard, or draft one in the 2nd round. Dorsey made his living finding really good guards late in the draft, and Veach has finally done it himself. Smith will not crack the lineup this year, but he's going to be our starting RG in 2022 -- bank on it. I have no idea how Veach landed this, when it was late in the 6th round and teams were just taking long snappers because there was no talent left on the board. A+
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Direckshun 02:42 PM 05-03-2021
Originally Posted by staylor26:
We got to the ****ing SB with Tanoh and Okafor at DE. They were way down the list of reasons we lost.

How exactly did we get so much worse there that we arenít a savvy free agent addition now or after cuts away from being perfectly fine?

Are Danna, Taco, Ward, and Kaindoh THAT much worse?

Taco and Ward showed more flashes last year than those guys did. Thereís much more upside there at the very least.

Iím not saying we shouldnít be signing somebody like Ingram, Houston, or Kerrigan. Iím sure we will add a veteran starter at some point. When has Veach ever stopped working on the roster?
I have a different itemization as you as to why we lost the Super Bowl.

Pretty high up the list is that we couldn't get pressure on Brady.

So to answer your question: they're not that much worse. Are they that much better?
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Direckshun 02:43 PM 05-03-2021
Originally Posted by staylor26:
Also, I love how people ignore that pass rush is a unit thing, and Reed has certainly given us a huge upgrade there.
Agreed.

Edit: But I swear to god, if our lack of investment at DE2 means we have to put Chris Jones there, then we're officially downgrading at two spots.
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Direckshun 02:44 PM 05-03-2021
Originally Posted by duncan_idaho:
Re: #2

Here's the thing (and despite being a Mizzou fan, I wasn't over the moon with the pick), though: You're projecting Bolton as a 2-down LB. He has great instincts and was an effective pass defender in short areas at Mizzou. He's not a nothing at pass defense. He isn't auto death if he gets matched up in the flat.

He doesn't have the size and speed to play man-up defense against a Darren Waller or really elite, athletic move TE... at least not deep down the field... and would be a bad fit at MLB in a cover 3 D. But the guy isn't a zero at pass pro by any means.

Re: #3
Terrace Marshall and Dyami Brown were higher on my want list than Bolton, too. I think there are real questions about Perkins' fit in this defense (is he big enough? does he defend the run well enough?), though. And Bashem - as a guy who would need to reduce inside to rush the passer - wasn't of the same value as a Peyton Turner would have provided. I don't think there was a DE that fits the scheme that was a great value at that pick.

All indications are we're going to see a lot of Chris Jones at DE on base downs. That reduces some DE need both in 21 and 22. I understand the concern moving forward and the idea that they're going to have to address the position. But I don't really believe Bashem or Perkins drastically changes that equation.

I think you're paranoid, though, if you're looking at this team and seeing holes all over the place.
2. Fair. I guess we'll see.

3. Also fair, but check my previous post on playing Jones at DE. I'm not a fan.
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Chris Meck 02:57 PM 05-03-2021
Originally Posted by Direckshun:
Ronnie Perkins was at the top of my big board when 58 rolled around.

We passed on him twice, if my memory is correct.
you think maybe the fact that he's 6'2", 253 lbs. with 32" arms led the Chiefs to think he's not the greatest fit for a 4-3 DE? I mean there's no length, T. Rex arms, and he's light in the shorts. Looks like a 3-4 rushbacker to me. In KC I think he'd physically be limited to situational pass rusher.
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Bowser 02:59 PM 05-03-2021
Originally Posted by Direckshun:
You guys are absolutely sleeping on the DE position.
Again, I trust our front office and coaches because they've proven their worth the last three seasons. We can't have pro bowlers at every single starting position, and what we have across from Clark may not be special but they're not dogshit, either.
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Chris Meck 03:06 PM 05-03-2021
Originally Posted by Direckshun:
1. That's fair.

2. This is fine, and I do understand that some players are of higher value to certain teams that run certain schemes. But let me break this down for you: Nick Bolton is probably not going to be playing passing downs. And if he does, that's not what he was good at for the Tigers. So... you've drafted a two-down linebacker in the Hitchens mold 58th overall, with good passrushers and receivers on the board. That's just not a wise use of resources.

3. I absolutely don't think we should have reached for anyone, ever. Nor am I saying we should pass up on an "A" linebacker for a "C" wide receiver simply because we have a dire need there and WR is more valuable. I'm saying that I had four players on my board -- Dyami Brown, Terrace Marshall, Ronnie Perkins, and Carlos Basham -- who were all valuable at the low 2nd picks, who all played valuable positions that we had desperate needs at, and we punted for a linebacker (which we did need!) who can't play the pass particularly well.

4. All good points, I don't disagree.

But I would have taken Ronnie Perkins and entered the 2021 season with two starting-caliber defensive ends and a competent Blythe at center than further-packing our OL and leaving one DE position wide open, which we've done.
I disagree strongly that Bolton is a two down LB. Very strongly.

I disagree strongly that Ronnie Perkins is a 3 down 4-3 end. Hes's 6'2", 253 lbs with 32" arms. No length, no meat, no 3 down 4-3 DE. He's a situational pass rusher for a team like KC or he gets eaten alive in the running game.

I liked Dyami, Amon-Ra, Amari Cooper, several WR's in that range. KC front office apparently didn't as much as we did. That doesn't mean we're wrong, and in fact only time will tell if they're right. I suppose what irritates me is that your posts come off as if you are declaring them "wrong" and you "right". Which is plain silly. You want to criticize, you need to wait and see what plays out, otherwise you're just a guy on the internet bitching that they didn't like the guys you liked.
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Hoover 03:14 PM 05-03-2021
I guess I'd counter by saying that with the Chiefs being stuck at the bottom of the draft, then it actually makes more sense to invest in positions like Running Back, IOL, or LB because you are getting the top talents at those positions.

I think it's going to be difficult to draft a DE that will stratify what people typically want around here. That player is never really available late in round one.

All that said, by filling the need at center, the Chiefs are now freed up to use their draft capital in positions like WR and DE. This wasn't a deep draft, so if you were ever going to draft some fatties, this was it!
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O.city 03:17 PM 05-03-2021
Originally Posted by Hoover:
I guess I'd counter by saying that with the Chiefs being stuck at the bottom of the draft, then it actually makes more sense to invest in positions like Running Back, IOL, or LB because you are getting the top talents at those positions.

I think it's going to be difficult to draft a DE that will stratify what people typically want around here. That player is never really available late in round one.

All that said, by filling the need at center, the Chiefs are now freed up to use their draft capital in positions like WR and DE. This wasn't a deep draft, so if you were ever going to draft some fatties, this was it!
You're gonna have to go developmental and get a bit lucky or go Frank Clark and trade for a guy.

I think you could sign a free agent like Houston and/or Ingram and that would be fine. You need to hit on some value somehwere.
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duncan_idaho 03:18 PM 05-03-2021
Originally Posted by Direckshun:
2. Fair. I guess we'll see.

3. Also fair, but check my previous post on playing Jones at DE. I'm not a fan.
It's all situational. If the Chiefs have a two-score lead, I wouldn't expect to see Jones at DE.

It's also about what vet they can add in FA. If they can add Justin Houston or Kerrigan, for example, they can probably roll with that guy as their main man at LE. Melvin Ingram might lead to more of a role for Jones at E on non-passing downs.
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O.city 03:19 PM 05-03-2021
If you're hoping for a blue chip DE ala Khalil Mack, you aint getting that in the late first.

Draft and develop is gonna have to work out.
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duncan_idaho 03:28 PM 05-03-2021
Originally Posted by O.city:
You're gonna have to go developmental and get a bit lucky or go Frank Clark and trade for a guy.

I think you could sign a free agent like Houston and/or Ingram and that would be fine. You need to hit on some value somehwere.
Agree.

I think that's why they took a swing on the upside Kaindoh offers rather than either of the ND DEs. They're taking a swing on his physical attributes and hoping his lack of production and development at Florida State was due to the crap show it was.
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staylor26 04:17 PM 05-03-2021
Originally Posted by Hoover:
I guess I'd counter by saying that with the Chiefs being stuck at the bottom of the draft, then it actually makes more sense to invest in positions like Running Back, IOL, or LB because you are getting the top talents at those positions.

I think it's going to be difficult to draft a DE that will stratify what people typically want around here. That player is never really available late in round one.

All that said, by filling the need at center, the Chiefs are now freed up to use their draft capital in positions like WR and DE. This wasn't a deep draft, so if you were ever going to draft some fatties, this was it!



And that doesn’t necessarily have to be a rule. It just makes sense given our needs and what was available. If we had our 1st, you take a big swing on a guy like Oweh for example.
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TLO 04:32 PM 05-03-2021
Originally Posted by :
and I see a lot of Kawika Mitchell in him
Stopped reading here.
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RunKC 10:21 PM 05-03-2021
Even though I think Nick Bolton is a high floor/low ceiling player, I don’t mind him. He will take over for Hitchens and save money which has value. I don’t think he’s gonna suck by any means.

Meanwhile watching this team draft these awesome athletes in college who underwhelmed and didn’t do jack shit in a Chiefs uniform has been as true as death and taxes.

Eddie Freeman
Turk McBride
Tank Tyler
Junior Siavii
Tyson ****ing Jackson
Alex Magee
Dontari Poe-he lived up to his draft status for 1 year
Tanoh Kpassagnon
Khaulen Saunders


All these guys had a singular trait or combo of elite athleticism, elite strength, elite size and they all sucked. I didn’t list Speaks fat ass but he was touted ass this strong and tough. We saw how that worked out.

Meanwhile Tamba, DT, Houston and even Jones all dominated in college. They had good production and ****ing owned some mother****ers. Like they straight up raped college lineman. Even Dee ****ing Ford flashed a lot and had good production in college and had value here for a time until he royally ****ed up.
Yes I’d even put Allen Bailey on that list. He was very productive in college.

Only DL that I can remember that was awesome in college and let me down was Glenn Dorsey.

Generally I’m just tired of seeing the underwhelming college DL get drafted not for what they are but what they could be. It just doesn’t seem to work out at that position for us.

That’s why I wanted the ND kid
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A Salt Weapon 05-03-2021, 11:06 PM
This message has been deleted by DaFace. Reason: BS politics for no reason
Couch-Potato 11:15 PM 05-03-2021
Some of your points have merit, so I'm curious how would you have chosen differently considering how the draft played out?

I may have proffered the following:


Bolton, better value over Basham and Marshall.

Humphrey, another potential 1st rounder in the late 2nd.

Ihmir Smih-Marsette instead of Kaindoh would have been my first adjustment.

Wallow instead of Gray, I like Gray a lot but Wallow has pass rush and completes our LB core

Ogundeji over Powell, is there a big difference between Ogundeji and Kaindoh?

Trey Smith was a steal here, potential future starter in the 6th.
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