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Saccopoo Memorial Draft Forum>I am not a fan of Veach's "tier" approach.
Direckshun 09:02 AM 05-02-2021
The idea that he has players in layered tiers is not new, of course.

But here's the problem with it: in any tier you care to look at, the most valuable positions get drafted first, because of course they should. Quarterback, tackle, wide receiver, passrusher.

The last players to be chosen in any tier are going to be the lowest value players.

Running back. Linebacker. Interior offensive line.

And here we are. That's been the Chiefs last four picks in the 1st and 2nd rounds of the draft.

It's just not a great approach when you're always at the end of the round, which the Chiefs always will be under Reid and Mahomes. You need to be able to be more flexible.

The Chiefs selected a linebacker (which we do desperately need) and a center (which we kinda needed) when there were really good players in a lower tier still on the board.

How much better is Humphrey going to be than Blythe? Really?

Because remember that when we struggle to get a passrush in December, January, and February. Remember that in the Super Bowl when the Bucs run out the exact same coverage that blanketed us the first time and we still don't have a WR2 that can break free of 1 on 1 coverage. Remember that when, god forbid, one of our corners go down with injury in week 7 and we have to watch Rashad Fenton get raked for 8 weeks.

That being said, the Chiefs did get better this weekend. They just could have gotten a lot better this weekend, with how sexy the board looked when they were up to pick.

Pick by pick reviews.

LB Nick Bolton, Missouri -- The Chiefs probably have the best linebacking corps now that they've had in a decade. Hitchens finally seems to understand the system, Gay looked really solid all year and came on until his injury, and Bolton's going to be really good. He's a smart player with limited athleticism, so really a perfect Spags linebacker. But he may be a two-down player, and I see a lot of Kawika Mitchell in him -- neither of those are deserving of the 2nd round pick we spent. C-

C Creed Humphrey, Oklahoma -- I think Humphrey has Pro Bowl upside, and honestly the Chiefs track record on 2nd round centers is stellar with Mitch Morse and Rodney Hudson. I think he's going to be a starter here for 10 years. I'd had preferred other players, but this was a good get. A-

DE Joshua Kaindoh, Florida State -- I really don't like this pick, and only talked myself into it the day of the draft because we are so desperate at the position. Kaindoh has every bit of the size you need, but he just has no feel for the game. This is a Demetrius-Harris-sized project. Harris turned out to be pretty good, but it took us four years to get there. Kaindoh may yield the same returns at a different position. D+

TE Noah Gray, Duke -- I really hope the loss of Anthony Sherman didn't mess with our heads badly enough to take this guy, as the team later was communicating he could be a flex fullback. It's hard for me to get too worked up about Gray, however, one way or the other. I think he's fine, but a poor fit, but the 5th round on was just garbage in terms of options. C+

WR Cornell Powell, Clemson -- The questions with Powell entirely will be between the ears. He is already physically maxed out and is pretty great with the ball in his hands. I imagine he will peak out in a couple seaons as a WR3 in our offense, but if the Chiefs continue to fail to find a really good WR2, he could ascend to a shrug-WR2, someone to play the position non-pathetically until we find the next Sammy Watkins. I think his ceiling is Chris Conley, which is nothing to write home about, but that's a really great get in a draft this garbage. B+

OG Tre Smith, Tennessee -- Home run. No question. This is why you don't burn $80m on a guard, or draft one in the 2nd round. Dorsey made his living finding really good guards late in the draft, and Veach has finally done it himself. Smith will not crack the lineup this year, but he's going to be our starting RG in 2022 -- bank on it. I have no idea how Veach landed this, when it was late in the 6th round and teams were just taking long snappers because there was no talent left on the board. A+
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Direckshun 01:27 PM 05-03-2021
Originally Posted by Bowser:
We have more depth across the board right now at nearly every position than we have had in years, maybe excluding corner and receiver, and this team has been to three AFCCG's and two Super Bowls in a row. Not only do I trust in Veach and his guys to do their due diligence researching who to bring into the fold, I trust our positional coaches and coordinators to maximize these guys' abilities and when and where to use them.

Did we reach with a couple of picks when we should have taken someone else? Sure, quite probably. Am I concerned about it? Not in the least. I'm stoked about these picks, every one of them. Even Kaindoh who can start on special teams and learn from Okafor, Taco, Clark, and Danna.
You guys are absolutely sleeping on the DE position.
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Direckshun 01:34 PM 05-03-2021
Originally Posted by Chris Meck:
Oh man. Where to start with this post?

Let's start here:

1)99% of the mock drafts and 'expert analysis' bullshit we see is based on rumors and guesses by people who are not and never have been NFL scouts. Most of them are no more qualified than you or I to run an NFL draft room; and you or I are absolutely NOT qualified just because we read what these guys say and watch some YouTube videos.

2) The concept of positional value above all else ignores CONTEXT. Judging an individual draft by that that concept ignores so many variables that are really important like:

A)team needs, which include cap situations regarding veterans going forward, the depth chart and whether this position is likely to see the field any time soon

B)Scheme fit- sure that player may be EDGE RUSHER #6, which is excellent value in the late 2nd round, but he's 245 lbs. and best suited as a 3-4 OLB, and is likely to ONLY be successful as a situational pass rusher in a 4-3 base/heavy nickel like we run here. So no, he's not as valuable as a guy who may play 60 snaps plus a game at a less 'premier' position of NEED.

3)Your premise assumes that there is a huge difference between, say, WR #8 and WR #16. The reality is, because of scheme fit, differences of opinion in scouts rankings, and such WE have no earthly idea who WR #8 even is to any specific team, and the difference between WR #8 and #16 may be a big difference or very little. A lot of times, guys are bunched in very similar talent groups and you don't know what variables make the fit a good one or not. Maybe WR #8 is faster, but he's dumb as a rock and unlikely to be able to digest an Andy Reid playbook. WR #16 is super smart and a better route runner which allows him to play 'quicker' than his 40 time but he played in a dumbed down offense in college so you and I don't know that, but the scouts do and he's a better fit actually than WR #8.

So do you reach for WR #16? You could, and then everybody talks about how stupid you are, because that guy has a fourth round grade, and this guy you passed over was a clear second round talent, yadda yadda yadda. So you wait and you take him where it makes sense to, and in the meantime-

4) KC is picking at the back end of every round. IF they stay with the so-called 'higher value, premier positions' they will forever be drafting lesser talent. This is a formula for a declining team. The system is literally set up that way-to encourage parity and discourage dynasties. If you keep your board open to any position that is a scheme and need fit you can get elite players albeit at 'less valued positions'. Having young, cost controlled elite talent is the key to keeping this SB train running as long as we can with Mahomes. You fill in what you need to in free agency, but the draft is still the foundation.

So, you take WR #8 in the second round, and end up with IOL #30 in round 6 and hope he can be a good starting Center in a couple of seasons because positional value! .This is how you end up with Reiter and Wylie.

But WR#16 was actually an equally good fit for the team and you could wait and grab him in the 4th because he's a really SPECIFIC good fit for this offense more so than some others and your scouts just love him. So you take the LB and the OC in the second because they fit perfect and you can greatly improve two separate position groupings from good to elite.

That's of more value than WR#8.

We need elite young cost controlled talent for now, and for the near future. You don't get that by drafting lower rated players at higher rated positions according to unqualified draftniks.

We got EXCELLENT value in round 2 with late first/early 2nd rated guys at positions of need; and the Offensive line has gone from our biggest weakness to an elite group for this season and seasons to come. The LB corps from our biggest defensive weakness to one with great promise for this season and the near future. We made our team weaknesses into strengths.
1. That's fair.

2. This is fine, and I do understand that some players are of higher value to certain teams that run certain schemes. But let me break this down for you: Nick Bolton is probably not going to be playing passing downs. And if he does, that's not what he was good at for the Tigers. So... you've drafted a two-down linebacker in the Hitchens mold 58th overall, with good passrushers and receivers on the board. That's just not a wise use of resources.

3. I absolutely don't think we should have reached for anyone, ever. Nor am I saying we should pass up on an "A" linebacker for a "C" wide receiver simply because we have a dire need there and WR is more valuable. I'm saying that I had four players on my board -- Dyami Brown, Terrace Marshall, Ronnie Perkins, and Carlos Basham -- who were all valuable at the low 2nd picks, who all played valuable positions that we had desperate needs at, and we punted for a linebacker (which we did need!) who can't play the pass particularly well.

4. All good points, I don't disagree.

But I would have taken Ronnie Perkins and entered the 2021 season with two starting-caliber defensive ends and a competent Blythe at center than further-packing our OL and leaving one DE position wide open, which we've done.
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Direckshun 01:36 PM 05-03-2021
Originally Posted by Chris Meck:
"I'm not a fan of Veach's tier aproach"

-hosted 3 straight AFCCG
-won SB54
-went to back to back SB's
-wiped out all team weaknesses in 2 months
-team is well set with the cap situation for the forseeable future.

Yeah, Direckshun

Thanks for weighing in! :-)
Can we please dispense with the idea that Veach is above criticism?

We likely have two Super Bowls at this point if Veach had added a single defensive playmaker in 2018. His draft was horrendous. And he's made several goofs here and there that many of us called at the time.

Also: he hasn't "wiped out all team weaknesses." WE HAVE ONE STARTING DEFENSIVE END ON THE ROSTER.
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DaneMcCloud 01:46 PM 05-03-2021
Originally Posted by Direckshun:
Also: he hasn't "wiped out all team weaknesses." WE HAVE ONE STARTING DEFENSIVE END ON THE ROSTER.
Oh, I hadn't realized that the time for signing free agents is over.

It's really too bad that they won't be able to add any defensive ends via free agency, player-for-player trades or the waiver wire before the season begins in September.
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Direckshun 01:54 PM 05-03-2021
Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud:
Oh, I hadn't realized that the time for signing free agents is over.

It's really too bad that they won't be able to add any defensive ends via free agency, player-for-player trades or the waiver wire before the season begins in September.
The odds of landing a starting DE in a player-for-player trade is just... it's not great. Same with the waiver wire.

Your best shot is with the remaining DE market. There are some DEs still on the board, which is fine and all, but keep in mind the depth issue at DE will persist well after this season.

Frank Clark is cuttable in 2022. You save $13m if you do.

Putting a finger in the dam with Ingram or Ansah or Kerrigan is unlikely to fix that.
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DaneMcCloud 01:56 PM 05-03-2021
Originally Posted by Direckshun:
The odds of landing a starting DE in a player-for-player trade is just... it's not great.
Huh.

I seem to remember a guy named Emmanuel Ogbah, who was acquired in a player-for-player deal in 2019, who had 7.5 sacks that year.

I also remember Veach doing a player-for-player trade in 2018, which ended up being Chavarious Ward.
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Direckshun 01:59 PM 05-03-2021
Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud:
Huh.

I seem to remember a guy named Emmanuel Ogbah, who was acquired in a player-for-player deal in 2019, who had 7.5 sacks that year.

I also remember Veach doing a player-for-player trade in 2018, which ended up being Chavarious Ward.
Again, that's fine and all. I just absolutely do not like the odds.
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staylor26 02:06 PM 05-03-2021
The Chiefs got 3 guys that were legitimately in the 1st round conversation earlier in the process without a 1st round pick.

Direckshun : “I’m not a fan of Veach’s approach”
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staylor26 02:13 PM 05-03-2021
Terrace Marshall- clearly injury concerns there. We don’t know the medical situation. Maybe give them and all of the other teams that passed on him the benefit of the doubt?

Ronnie Perkins- they clearly didn’t feel he was a fit and it’s easy to see why. He doesn’t fit the profile of a Spags DE at all.

Dyami Brown- based on who the Chiefs went after in free agency, and who they went with in the draft, it’s obvious that they were looking for a type. They wanted somebody big and physical.

Carlos Basham- another guy that doesn’t seem to fit what they’re looking for at the position. They want true defensive ends, not guys that you’re going to need to slide inside to get a pass rush from. We have Jones, Reed, and Wharton. We don’t need more interior pass rush, we need guys that can consistently win outside on the edge.

All of those guys are good players and were guys I liked, but it’s easy to see why the Chiefs went in the direction they did when you actually pay attention and listen as opposed to thinking you know bette than the guys that just went to back to back SB’s and rebuilt their OL in a way any of us could’ve only dreamed of.

Call it an appeal of authority all you want Direckshun, but you aren’t very good at this even as a fan on a forum, so it’s extremely laughable how you continue to question the best in the business at every turn. It’s embarrassing and cringy.
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O.city 02:14 PM 05-03-2021
Originally Posted by Direckshun:
We had holes everywhere.

Still do -- we have at least two holes open at starting positions.

Guys, if Frank Clark goes down, which he has every year we've had him, we're going to be starting Taco Charlton and Mike Danna. And rotating in Tim Ward and Kaindoh.

You guys aren't grasping how big of a hole that is.
They've got guys that can play it. Not at an elite level. But fine.

If it is leaving that "hole" there or leaving a hole on teh OL well, we know how that plays out.
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staylor26 02:22 PM 05-03-2021
We got to the fucking SB with Tanoh and Okafor at DE. They were way down the list of reasons we lost.

How exactly did we get so much worse there that we aren’t a savvy free agent addition now or after cuts away from being perfectly fine?

Are Danna, Taco, Ward, and Kaindoh THAT much worse?

Taco and Ward showed more flashes last year than those guys did. There’s much more upside there at the very least.

I’m not saying we shouldn’t be signing somebody like Ingram, Houston, or Kerrigan. I’m sure we will add a veteran starter at some point. When has Veach ever stopped working on the roster?
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staylor26 02:24 PM 05-03-2021
Also, I love how people ignore that pass rush is a unit thing, and Reed has certainly given us a huge upgrade there.
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Direckshun 02:36 PM 05-03-2021
Originally Posted by staylor26:
The Chiefs got 3 guys that were legitimately in the 1st round conversation earlier in the process without a 1st round pick.

Direckshun : ďIím not a fan of Veachís approachĒ
Hey I'm 100% on board with Tre Smith. Literally said so in the OP.

I don't think we got the most bang for our buck, though, which is not exactly earth shattering news. We've seen Veach do that for entire drafts.
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duncan_idaho 02:36 PM 05-03-2021
Originally Posted by Direckshun:
1. That's fair.

2. This is fine, and I do understand that some players are of higher value to certain teams that run certain schemes. But let me break this down for you: Nick Bolton is probably not going to be playing passing downs. And if he does, that's not what he was good at for the Tigers. So... you've drafted a two-down linebacker in the Hitchens mold 58th overall, with good passrushers and receivers on the board. That's just not a wise use of resources.

3. I absolutely don't think we should have reached for anyone, ever. Nor am I saying we should pass up on an "A" linebacker for a "C" wide receiver simply because we have a dire need there and WR is more valuable. I'm saying that I had four players on my board -- Dyami Brown, Terrace Marshall, Ronnie Perkins, and Carlos Basham -- who were all valuable at the low 2nd picks, who all played valuable positions that we had desperate needs at, and we punted for a linebacker (which we did need!) who can't play the pass particularly well.

4. All good points, I don't disagree.

But I would have taken Ronnie Perkins and entered the 2021 season with two starting-caliber defensive ends and a competent Blythe at center than further-packing our OL and leaving one DE position wide open, which we've done.
Re: #2

Here's the thing (and despite being a Mizzou fan, I wasn't over the moon with the pick), though: You're projecting Bolton as a 2-down LB. He has great instincts and was an effective pass defender in short areas at Mizzou. He's not a nothing at pass defense. He isn't auto death if he gets matched up in the flat.

He doesn't have the size and speed to play man-up defense against a Darren Waller or really elite, athletic move TE... at least not deep down the field... and would be a bad fit at MLB in a cover 3 D. But the guy isn't a zero at pass pro by any means.

Re: #3
Terrace Marshall and Dyami Brown were higher on my want list than Bolton, too. I think there are real questions about Perkins' fit in this defense (is he big enough? does he defend the run well enough?), though. And Bashem - as a guy who would need to reduce inside to rush the passer - wasn't of the same value as a Peyton Turner would have provided. I don't think there was a DE that fits the scheme that was a great value at that pick.

All indications are we're going to see a lot of Chris Jones at DE on base downs. That reduces some DE need both in 21 and 22. I understand the concern moving forward and the idea that they're going to have to address the position. But I don't really believe Bashem or Perkins drastically changes that equation.

I think you're paranoid, though, if you're looking at this team and seeing holes all over the place.
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Direckshun 02:41 PM 05-03-2021
Originally Posted by staylor26:
Terrace Marshall- clearly injury concerns there. We donít know the medical situation. Maybe give them and all of the other teams that passed on him the benefit of the doubt?

Ronnie Perkins- they clearly didnít feel he was a fit and itís easy to see why. He doesnít fit the profile of a Spags DE at all.

Dyami Brown- based on who the Chiefs went after in free agency, and who they went with in the draft, itís obvious that they were looking for a type. They wanted somebody big and physical.

Carlos Basham- another guy that doesnít seem to fit what theyíre looking for at the position. They want true defensive ends, not guys that youíre going to need to slide inside to get a pass rush from. We have Jones, Reed, and Wharton. We donít need more interior pass rush, we need guys that can consistently win outside on the edge.

All of those guys are good players and were guys I liked, but itís easy to see why the Chiefs went in the direction they did when you actually pay attention and listen as opposed to thinking you know bette than the guys that just went to back to back SBís and rebuilt their OL in a way any of us couldíve only dreamed of.
I am not beholden to the direction the Chiefs want to go, and I don't have to defer to it. We've seen Brett Veach screw up draft picks, free agents, and entire draft classes. He's done a good job but your argument that he's above reproach is silly, nor does it lend itself to much more than groupthink.

But I don't really care about arguments about "Spags types" as much as I used to -- Mike Danna and Melvin Ingram interest have deflated me of that.

I do agree there has been a Spags type, though, and Perkins falls comfortably outside of it, but Basham was built for it. Strongside muscle with the ability to flex inside during obvious passing situations is exactly what Spags has asked of our guys in the past. I don't know why this is breaking news.

Our WR room is getting awfully stale in a hurry with Robinson, Hardman, and Pringle. Maybe one of these guys can take a step but after the Super Bowl I just watched, I cannot commit to any of them as WR2's, and there aren't any left in FA. We are now at the mercy of what other teams are willing to discard, when we had a front row seat to two very talented WRs.

But that's alright, because we spent 58 on a two-down linebacker and a center who will give you somewhat better play than the center we already had.

I don't want to re-live Super Bowl LV again. This draft made a step in the right direction, but it could have made a leap.
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