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Saccopoo Memorial Draft Forum>I am not a fan of Veach's "tier" approach.
Direckshun 09:02 AM 05-02-2021
The idea that he has players in layered tiers is not new, of course.

But here's the problem with it: in any tier you care to look at, the most valuable positions get drafted first, because of course they should. Quarterback, tackle, wide receiver, passrusher.

The last players to be chosen in any tier are going to be the lowest value players.

Running back. Linebacker. Interior offensive line.

And here we are. That's been the Chiefs last four picks in the 1st and 2nd rounds of the draft.

It's just not a great approach when you're always at the end of the round, which the Chiefs always will be under Reid and Mahomes. You need to be able to be more flexible.

The Chiefs selected a linebacker (which we do desperately need) and a center (which we kinda needed) when there were really good players in a lower tier still on the board.

How much better is Humphrey going to be than Blythe? Really?

Because remember that when we struggle to get a passrush in December, January, and February. Remember that in the Super Bowl when the Bucs run out the exact same coverage that blanketed us the first time and we still don't have a WR2 that can break free of 1 on 1 coverage. Remember that when, god forbid, one of our corners go down with injury in week 7 and we have to watch Rashad Fenton get raked for 8 weeks.

That being said, the Chiefs did get better this weekend. They just could have gotten a lot better this weekend, with how sexy the board looked when they were up to pick.

Pick by pick reviews.

LB Nick Bolton, Missouri -- The Chiefs probably have the best linebacking corps now that they've had in a decade. Hitchens finally seems to understand the system, Gay looked really solid all year and came on until his injury, and Bolton's going to be really good. He's a smart player with limited athleticism, so really a perfect Spags linebacker. But he may be a two-down player, and I see a lot of Kawika Mitchell in him -- neither of those are deserving of the 2nd round pick we spent. C-

C Creed Humphrey, Oklahoma -- I think Humphrey has Pro Bowl upside, and honestly the Chiefs track record on 2nd round centers is stellar with Mitch Morse and Rodney Hudson. I think he's going to be a starter here for 10 years. I'd had preferred other players, but this was a good get. A-

DE Joshua Kaindoh, Florida State -- I really don't like this pick, and only talked myself into it the day of the draft because we are so desperate at the position. Kaindoh has every bit of the size you need, but he just has no feel for the game. This is a Demetrius-Harris-sized project. Harris turned out to be pretty good, but it took us four years to get there. Kaindoh may yield the same returns at a different position. D+

TE Noah Gray, Duke -- I really hope the loss of Anthony Sherman didn't mess with our heads badly enough to take this guy, as the team later was communicating he could be a flex fullback. It's hard for me to get too worked up about Gray, however, one way or the other. I think he's fine, but a poor fit, but the 5th round on was just garbage in terms of options. C+

WR Cornell Powell, Clemson -- The questions with Powell entirely will be between the ears. He is already physically maxed out and is pretty great with the ball in his hands. I imagine he will peak out in a couple seaons as a WR3 in our offense, but if the Chiefs continue to fail to find a really good WR2, he could ascend to a shrug-WR2, someone to play the position non-pathetically until we find the next Sammy Watkins. I think his ceiling is Chris Conley, which is nothing to write home about, but that's a really great get in a draft this garbage. B+

OG Tre Smith, Tennessee -- Home run. No question. This is why you don't burn $80m on a guard, or draft one in the 2nd round. Dorsey made his living finding really good guards late in the draft, and Veach has finally done it himself. Smith will not crack the lineup this year, but he's going to be our starting RG in 2022 -- bank on it. I have no idea how Veach landed this, when it was late in the 6th round and teams were just taking long snappers because there was no talent left on the board. A+
[Reply]
Kellerfox 11:29 AM 05-02-2021
Originally Posted by The Franchise:
Iím just saying. If I was a Cardinals fan...I would be pissed at the Zaven Collins pick right now.
They are. GM Keim is an awful drafter. They have wanted his head on a pike for years now. Year round Keim hate is literally the foundation of local sports radio.

Compounding the LB/LB on back-to-back years in the top 16, they did the same thing previously with QB/QB. And 2017 was Hassan Reddick, another LB (really a DE they played out off position...).

Obviously the switch to Murray from Rosen was the right move, but they've had questionable positional decision making 5 years straight related to their 1st round picks. That statement is made agnostic of the actual players success.
[Reply]
DaneMcCloud 12:28 PM 05-02-2021
Another year and yet another shitty draft evaluation by Direckshun.

For as many mocks as you’ve done over the past 15 years, it’s clearly evident that you haven’t learned a goddamned thing.
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RealSNR 12:31 PM 05-02-2021
Originally Posted by staylor26:
While the PFF and AP idiots are overly concerned with positional value and trading draft picks away, the Chiefs have completely rebuilt their OL into a strength.

They said paying a G like Thuney was bad.

Trading away picks to pay Orlando Brown was bad.

Drafting a C at 63 was bad.

They ignore the overall picture and results in favor of their “rules”.

It’s fucking dumb.
I agree with the premise of not paying guards that much, but it still depends on context. A team like Jacksonville perhaps shouldn't give that contract to Joe Thuney. He's just not going to make a significant enough difference to matter. A team like them definitely IS better off using the draft and other forms of young player development to gradually improve it over multiple seasons, because it's going to take that long for them to start competing.

The Chiefs had the resources. They had the money. They needed the help. And the help is going to significantly make a difference.

So pay the fucking money.

It's not hard.
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DaneMcCloud 12:36 PM 05-02-2021
The Jaguars paying Andrew Norvell was dumb. They didn’t have a franchise QB or great tackles or even a great running back.

The Chiefs paying Joe Thuney was smart. He’s a multiple Super Bowl champion who blocked for the best QB in NFL history and checks all of the boxes in terms of leadership, pass blocking, run blocking and experience.

As early as next season (and maybe even this season), Thuney will be the most senior of all of the offensive lineman and the Chiefs are smartly paying for a guy who’s been around the Super Bowl block and help to mold these guys into consistent champions.

He’s worth every single penny.
[Reply]
Chris Meck 12:41 PM 05-02-2021
Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud:
Another year and yet another shitty draft evaluation by Direckshun.

For as many mocks as youíve done over the past 15 years, itís clearly evident that you havenít learned a goddamned thing.
"I'm not a fan of Veach's tier aproach"

-hosted 3 straight AFCCG
-won SB54
-went to back to back SB's
-wiped out all team weaknesses in 2 months
-team is well set with the cap situation for the forseeable future.


Yeah, Direckshun

Thanks for weighing in! :-)
[Reply]
duncan_idaho 01:12 PM 05-02-2021
Originally Posted by Chris Meck:
Oh man. Where to start with this post?

Let's start here:

1)99% of the mock drafts and 'expert analysis' bullshit we see is based on rumors and guesses by people who are not and never have been NFL scouts. Most of them are no more qualified than you or I to run an NFL draft room; and you or I are absolutely NOT qualified just because we read what these guys say and watch some YouTube videos.

2) The concept of positional value above all else ignores CONTEXT. Judging an individual draft by that that concept ignores so many variables that are really important like:

A)team needs, which include cap situations regarding veterans going forward, the depth chart and whether this position is likely to see the field any time soon

B)Scheme fit- sure that player may be EDGE RUSHER #6, which is excellent value in the late 2nd round, but he's 245 lbs. and best suited as a 3-4 OLB, and is likely to ONLY be successful as a situational pass rusher in a 4-3 base/heavy nickel like we run here. So no, he's not as valuable as a guy who may play 60 snaps plus a game at a less 'premier' position of NEED.

3)Your premise assumes that there is a huge difference between, say, WR #8 and WR #16. The reality is, because of scheme fit, differences of opinion in scouts rankings, and such WE have no earthly idea who WR #8 even is to any specific team, and the difference between WR #8 and #16 may be a big difference or very little. A lot of times, guys are bunched in very similar talent groups and you don't know what variables make the fit a good one or not. Maybe WR #8 is faster, but he's dumb as a rock and unlikely to be able to digest an Andy Reid playbook. WR #16 is super smart and a better route runner which allows him to play 'quicker' than his 40 time but he played in a dumbed down offense in college so you and I don't know that, but the scouts do and he's a better fit actually than WR #8.

So do you reach for WR #16? You could, and then everybody talks about how stupid you are, because that guy has a fourth round grade, and this guy you passed over was a clear second round talent, yadda yadda yadda. So you wait and you take him where it makes sense to, and in the meantime-

4) KC is picking at the back end of every round. IF they stay with the so-called 'higher value, premier positions' they will forever be drafting lesser talent. This is a formula for a declining team. The system is literally set up that way-to encourage parity and discourage dynasties. If you keep your board open to any position that is a scheme and need fit you can get elite players albeit at 'less valued positions'. Having young, cost controlled elite talent is the key to keeping this SB train running as long as we can with Mahomes. You fill in what you need to in free agency, but the draft is still the foundation.

So, you take WR #8 in the second round, and end up with IOL #30 in round 6 and hope he can be a good starting Center in a couple of seasons because positional value! .This is how you end up with Reiter and Wylie.

But WR#16 was actually an equally good fit for the team and you could wait and grab him in the 4th because he's a really SPECIFIC good fit for this offense more so than some others and your scouts just love him. So you take the LB and the OC in the second because they fit perfect and you can greatly improve two separate position groupings from good to elite.

That's of more value than WR#8.

We need elite young cost controlled talent for now, and for the near future. You don't get that by drafting lower rated players at higher rated positions according to unqualified draftniks.

We got EXCELLENT value in round 2 with late first/early 2nd rated guys at positions of need; and the Offensive line has gone from our biggest weakness to an elite group for this season and seasons to come. The LB corps from our biggest defensive weakness to one with great promise for this season and the near future. We made our team weaknesses into strengths.

Well. This post perfectly encapsulates everything that needs to be said.

Shut it down. Turn out the lights. Nothing more to see or say.
[Reply]
MahomesMagic 02:09 PM 05-02-2021
Basham is a nice player but he's not a great fit here.

Can play DE early then kick inside later.

I think Buffalo took him to play some 3 Tech because Oliver might be a bust that they took top ten.

Creed all the way over Boogie.
[Reply]
Direckshun 01:16 PM 05-03-2021
Originally Posted by The Franchise:
Who? Basham?
Ronnie Perkins.

And, yeah, Basham.
[Reply]
Direckshun 01:17 PM 05-03-2021
Originally Posted by The Franchise:
Except they might not have seen Basham as an A pass rusher. We donít know how they had him valued.
I don't really care -- I know how I had him graded and that's what's informing my opinion.

If every conversation is just going to devolve into "we should all defer to Veach in all things," then we have nowhere else to go. Because I still remember him as the GM responsible for the 2018 abomination. I may be the only one left, but I do.
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Direckshun 01:18 PM 05-03-2021
Originally Posted by O.city:
If you want a legit DE, youíre either gonna have to go the frank clark route and trade for one or take one likely in the first round.
Originally Posted by The Franchise:
And a ton of those guys went late first. No way were we trading up that high to get one of the bottom. Thatís how you get Speaks 2.0.
Ronnie Perkins was at the top of my big board when 58 rolled around.

We passed on him twice, if my memory is correct.
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Direckshun 01:19 PM 05-03-2021
Originally Posted by The Franchise:
Everyone okay with the Cardinals taking two LBs with back to back top 20 picks?
heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeellllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll no
[Reply]
Direckshun 01:20 PM 05-03-2021
Originally Posted by The Franchise:
Bolton is worth the fact that when Hitchens gets tired or hurt....we wonít have to see Niemann come into the field at MLB.
Hitchens never gets hurt. He's missed like 1 game, I think, in three years. Dude plays through everything.
[Reply]
Direckshun 01:23 PM 05-03-2021
Originally Posted by staylor26:
While the PFF and AP idiots are overly concerned with positional value and trading draft picks away, the Chiefs have completely rebuilt their OL into a strength.

They said paying a G like Thuney was bad.

Trading away picks to pay Orlando Brown was bad.

Drafting a C at 63 was bad.

They ignore the overall picture and results in favor of their ďrulesĒ.

Itís ****ing dumb.
I'm not interested in defending the AP guys, I'll just defend myself.

I don't think there's any doubt that the Chiefs had tunnel vision this offseason -- they used all three phases of the offseason to improve the OL almost exclusively.

As a result, we are now shallow everywhere else. We were willing to obliterate our capspace for Trent Williams.

We have no starting DE. We have no WR. We are skinny at literally every other position.

There was a middle ground here. We know there was.
[Reply]
Direckshun 01:24 PM 05-03-2021
Originally Posted by htismaqe:
This.

You just got a guy that was projected to go in the 30ís at 58 and he will be responsible for almost $10M in cap savings next year when they can let Hitchens go. Itís absolutely worth it.
I believe cutting Hitchens in 2022 will only save us $6m.
[Reply]
Direckshun 01:26 PM 05-03-2021
Originally Posted by O.city:
When youíre a team like kc and you donít really have a gaping hole and have a super talented roster, you take good football players that fall for dumb reasons

The ones that did for the chiefs may not be at high level positions youíd like but really you donít get to make that decision unless you wanna trade up
We had holes everywhere.

Still do -- we have at least two holes open at starting positions.

Guys, if Frank Clark goes down, which he has every year we've had him, we're going to be starting Taco Charlton and Mike Danna. And rotating in Tim Ward and Kaindoh.

You guys aren't grasping how big of a hole that is.
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