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Media Center>Falcon and The Winter Soldier trailer
Tribal Warfare 04:40 AM 12-11-2020

[Reply]
DaneMcCloud 06:45 PM 05-03-2021
Originally Posted by Buehler445:
Nonetheless that’s a troubling trend.

There is a substantial difference in the way in which Black Panther addressed race (positively, secondary to the story), and F/WS did (negatively, lecturing).

Frankly I don’t need any more of the latter in my life than I already have.
Well, it's not only that but most men are willing to invest in these movies knowing full well that our "Suspension of Disbelief" is a critical component, especially when watching non-super hero women beat the fuck out of men that are not only trained in hand-to-hand combat but weigh 50 to 100 pounds or more than the female they're battling. It's silly fun, with the emphasis on silly.

But to drop Dr. Strange from the ending of this series, especially after those commercials were such a critical component of how the story would end, is absolutely ridiculous. I mean, Dr. Strange IS the Sorcerer Supreme and Wanda was just discovering her powers, so OF COURSE he's far more powerful than her at this point in time. Dismissing Dr. Strange, like Feige did in that interview, is not only ludicrous and insulting to both the character and Cumberbatch, it's insulting to the audience as well.

If this is the path they're preparing for Phase 4 and 5, I think they're going to lose a lot of viewers.
[Reply]
KC_Connection 06:59 PM 05-03-2021
Originally Posted by Bowser:
That's a great comparison with Watchmen and TFatWS, actually. Both could have been amazing stories, but both got drug down into the SJW mud by the people setting the story up.
I'm going to have to disagree on this one. TFatWS definitely did (the Karli/Flag Smashers story line couldn't have been any more blatant in that regard and was very poorly executed), but Watchmen was incredibly well done (and while it was a very political show, which given the initial source material shouldn't be surprising, I don't think I would characterize it as too SJW either). Probably one of the best things I've seen the past 5 years or so. I'd try giving it another chance.
[Reply]
KC_Connection 07:05 PM 05-03-2021
Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud:
I don't think it's HR but I can't say for sure. Here's a segment of an upcoming Rolling Stone interview with Kevin Feige about Dr. Strange & WandaVision:

-------------

In an upcoming interview with Kevin Feige at Rolling Stone, Benedict Cumberbatch’s Doctor Strange was indeed set to appear. But then, something changed.

Feige says that the fictional commercials for products like “Toast Mate” and “Hydra Soak” during WandaVision were actually intended to build up to a Doctor Strange appearance. The ads were originally intended to be messages sent to Wanda from Doctor Strange, as he also attempted to break through her fake reality. Marvel had actually finalized a deal with Cumberbatch to appear in the finale until a late-stage rewrite saw him written out. Feige says:

“Some people might say, ‘Oh, it would’ve been so cool to see Doctor Strange. But it would have taken away from Wanda. We didn’t want the end of the show to be commoditized to go to the next movie – here’s the white guy, ‘Let me show you how power works.'”


---------
I kept wondering where the Dr. Strange 2 tie-in would occur but apparently, it was re-written at the last minute.

Considering they'd been hyping WandaVision as important to Phase 4 and specifically, Dr. Strange 2, it seems really odd that they'd ax it at the last minute, unless there was pressure coming from somewhere.
I was fine with the show not including him and still am, but if that was the actual reason...yikes. That sounds like someone scared about what the Twitter reaction would have been. Not a way anyone should be writing a series.
[Reply]
Buehler445 07:15 PM 05-03-2021
Originally Posted by Baby Lee:
Oh yeah? Maybe you should, . . I dunno, . . . DO BETTER!?!?!
Yeah, well, there are a ton of things I need to do better.

Not included in that is fixing everyone elseís lives. My cunt sister slings enough of that my way I donít need anymore.

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud:
Well, it's not only that but most men are willing to invest in these movies knowing full well that our "Suspension of Disbelief" is a critical component, especially when watching non-super hero women beat the fuck out of men that are not only trained in hand-to-hand combat but weigh 50 to 100 pounds or more than the female they're battling. It's silly fun, with the emphasis on silly.

But to drop Dr. Strange from the ending of this series, especially after those commercials were such a critical component of how the story would end, is absolutely ridiculous. I mean, Dr. Strange IS the Sorcerer Supreme and Wanda was just discovering her powers, so OF COURSE he's far more powerful than her at this point in time. Dismissing Dr. Strange, like Feige did in that interview, is not only ludicrous and insulting to both the character and Cumberbatch, it's insulting to the audience as well.

If this is the path they're preparing for Phase 4 and 5, I think they're going to lose a lot of viewers.
Agreed. Especially if theyíre hamfisted about it. I think I mentioned before that I really enjoyed Green Book, which I fully expected not to for the reasons I didnít like that aspect of this show.

So Iím not necessarily opposed to broaching the subject. But I donít need to be lectured.

Same with DC, any woman-centric show, racially driven show, whatever. Just tell a compelling story and Iím in. MCU will come apart if they make too many Outings like this. Iíve always said Iíll give Marvel the rope to hang themselves with - and I still will. I just hope they donít do it.
[Reply]
Hammock Parties 07:25 PM 05-03-2021
Black people don't even read comics :-)
[Reply]
DaneMcCloud 08:37 PM 05-03-2021
Originally Posted by KC_Connection:
I was fine with the show not including him and still am, but if that was the actual reason...yikes. That sounds like someone scared about what the Twitter reaction would have been. Not a way anyone should be writing a series.
If the commercials had been filmed as is and the producers and showrunner decided that they didn't work for the story, fine. All good.

That said, it's quite obvious that the commercials were included in order to connect WandaVision to Dr. Strange 2, which is something marketing had been promoting since the series was announced.

While they weren't absolutely necessary to the overall story arc and character development, they now seem weirdly out of place, especially given Feige's "reasoning".
[Reply]
Jamie 11:57 PM 05-03-2021
Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud:
But Marcus Spellman (TFATWS & Cap 4) and Daniel Creston (Shang Ti) had zero experience directing $200 million dollar plus properties
It's not exactly new for Marvel to hire inexperienced directors. Really they mostly hire inexperienced directors, the reverse is more of an aberration. Destin Daniel Cretton really isn't any less experienced than Joss Whedon was, or James Gunn was, or the Russo Brothers were.

Also Spellman has only been hired to write and develop Cap 4. I wouldn't be surprised if it passes into other hands before it gets made, if previous Marvel films are anything to go by.

While I'm at it I want to point out, Spellman isn't the showrunner of F&tWS in the traditional sense. Matt Shakman, who directed Wandavision, described showrunner duties on Marvel shows as being split between the head writer, director, and Feige, with Feige maintaining final say. The director of F&tWS (Kari Skogland) is a white woman, so two of the three people most directly responsible for F&tWS are white.
[Reply]
Bowser 11:42 AM 05-04-2021
Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud:
Well, it's not only that but most men are willing to invest in these movies knowing full well that our "Suspension of Disbelief" is a critical component, especially when watching non-super hero women beat the fuck out of men that are not only trained in hand-to-hand combat but weigh 50 to 100 pounds or more than the female they're battling. It's silly fun, with the emphasis on silly.

But to drop Dr. Strange from the ending of this series, especially after those commercials were such a critical component of how the story would end, is absolutely ridiculous. I mean, Dr. Strange IS the Sorcerer Supreme and Wanda was just discovering her powers, so OF COURSE he's far more powerful than her at this point in time. Dismissing Dr. Strange, like Feige did in that interview, is not only ludicrous and insulting to both the character and Cumberbatch, it's insulting to the audience as well.

If this is the path they're preparing for Phase 4 and 5, I think they're going to lose a lot of viewers.
I think it's a glimpse into a larger issue going on in this country and the world at the moment. I do feel like they are trying to avoid angering and catering to the wokes, because cancel culture seemingly scares the shit out of mega corporations (or they use it to bolster and profit, maybe both). But you're 100% right - they will lose viewers over this if this is how it goes.

Originally Posted by KC_Connection:
I'm going to have to disagree on this one. TFatWS definitely did (the Karli/Flag Smashers story line couldn't have been any more blatant in that regard and was very poorly executed), but Watchmen was incredibly well done (and while it was a very political show, which given the initial source material shouldn't be surprising, I don't think I would characterize it as too SJW either). Probably one of the best things I've seen the past 5 years or so. I'd try giving it another chance.
Watchmen is in its DNA socially powered, I'll agree with that, but it went mega woke with its story and there's no getting around it. I still enjoyed watching it, but it definitely beat you over the head with SJW messages (the "Klan", the most powerful creature in creation choosing to change his race, evil white led corporations, etc etc...). Like I said to Dane - this is where we're at right now, unfortunately.
[Reply]
DaneMcCloud 12:15 PM 05-04-2021
Originally Posted by Jamie:
It's not exactly new for Marvel to hire inexperienced directors. Really they mostly hire inexperienced directors, the reverse is more of an aberration. Destin Daniel Cretton really isn't any less experienced than Joss Whedon was, or James Gunn was, or the Russo Brothers were.
You must be joking. Whedon co-wrote Toy Story, created several successful TV series over the years and was successful on many different levels as a writer, producer and director before directing the original Avengers movie.

James Gunn was a successful screenwriter and built a cult-following with his quirky movies such as Slither. He'd worked on successful properties in the past and was clearly the best choice for Guardians (and Suicide Squad). He has his own aesthetic and was a master of visuals long before Marvel.

The Russo Brothers carved out a successful career spanning decades of working in TV. They won a Prime Time Emmy for Arrested Development, wrote and directed feature films and created successful comedy series.

Now, compare that to Daniel Cretton's resume of three very, very small movies and one movie starring Michael B. Jordan. It's paltry and utterly ridiculous to compare him to people that had decades of success before being handed a Marvel project.

Then, compare the Russo's and Whedon to Malcom Spellman, who had like 8 episodes of Empire credited to his name, a few episodes of a bad Apple TV series and co-writer of a film 10 years ago.

Neither Cretton nor Spellman have even 1/50th the resume of Whedon, the Russo's or James Gunn, yet it's very, very clear why they were hired. To even remotely suggest that their career trajectories and credits are similar are similar in any way, shape or form is ludicrous and outright dumb.
[Reply]
unlurking 12:20 PM 05-04-2021
I can understand if they were trying to avoid making Wanda look like a damsel in distress, but they still could have included him. Even a simple Back to the Future ending where he shows up at the cabin and tells her that her kids are in danger would have been nice. A simple, "didn't you get my warnings, or did you skip the commercials?" comment would have tied those up too.
[Reply]
Jamie 06:33 PM 05-04-2021
Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud:
You must be joking. Whedon co-wrote Toy Story, created several successful TV series over the years and was successful on many different levels as a writer, producer and director before directing the original Avengers movie.
He was one of a bunch of writers on Toy Story, and created two successful TV shows and a third that didn't make it out of the first season. He had directed a lot of TV and one feature. No experience close to "directing $200 million dollar plus properties".

Originally Posted by :
James Gunn was a successful screenwriter and built a cult-following with his quirky movies such as Slither. He'd worked on successful properties in the past and was clearly the best choice for Guardians (and Suicide Squad). He has his own aesthetic and was a master of visuals long before Marvel.
He had only directed two movies, neither of which had a budget over $15 million.

Originally Posted by :
The Russo Brothers carved out a successful career spanning decades of working in TV. They won a Prime Time Emmy for Arrested Development, wrote and directed feature films and created successful comedy series.
12 years is "decades" to you? They had directed a lot of TV comedy, but you know as well as I do that's very a very different job from directing a feature. They didn't create the shows and weren't showrunners. The biggest thing they had done when Marvel hired them was direct You, Me, and Dupree, which had a budget of $54 million. And probably half of that was just to pay Matthew McConaughey and Kate Hudson.

Originally Posted by :
Now, compare that to Daniel Cretton's resume of three very, very small movies and one movie starring Michael B. Jordan. It's paltry and utterly ridiculous to compare him to people that had decades of success before being handed a Marvel project.
He wrote and directed Short Term 12, which won a pile of critics awards (and was on basically every list of Oscar snubs that year). And the aforementioned Michael B. Jordan movie, which you're glossing over pretty hard.

Originally Posted by :
Then, compare the Russo's and Whedon to Malcom Spellman, who had like 8 episodes of Empire credited to his name, a few episodes of a bad Apple TV series and co-writer of a film 10 years ago.
Why? They didn't hire him to do the same job. Compare him to Nicole Perlman, who wrote the first draft of Guardians of the Galaxy as literally her first professional credit.

Originally Posted by :
Neither Cretton nor Spellman have even 1/50th the resume of Whedon, the Russo's or James Gunn, yet it's very, very clear why they were hired. To even remotely suggest that their career trajectories and credits are similar are similar in any way, shape or form is ludicrous and outright dumb.
I think the facts show that premise is false, but even setting them aside, what about John Watts? He hadn't done shit when Marvel hired him to make Homecoming.
[Reply]
DaneMcCloud 06:36 PM 05-04-2021
Originally Posted by Jamie:
I think the facts show that premise is false, but even setting them aside, what about John Watts? He hadn't done shit when Marvel hired him to make Homecoming.
:-)

You just have to be kidding, right? How can you be this obtuse?

It's pretty clear that Malcom Spellman had no business producing or writing TFATWS because it was a shit story with shit editing and looked a like Network TV show and NOT a Marvel MCU property worth $150 million dollars.

I realize that you can use Wikipedia or IMDB to "dispute" but your post is rooted in complete and utter nonsense.

The Russo's, James Gunn and especially Joss Whedon (who I actually despise) paid their dues for more than a decade before being handed a huge, expensive, blockbuster property. And IMDB doesn't account for all of those years spent as Writer's Assistants or PA's or any other type of work that's required to rise in the ranks.

JFC.
[Reply]
DaneMcCloud 06:43 PM 05-04-2021
And Jon Watts, not "John" was a big time music video director with a certain visual style, along with graduating from NYU film school.
[Reply]
Deberg_1990 07:53 PM 05-04-2021
Watts made a great little movie with Kevin Bacon called ‘Cop Car’ before Spider Man.
[Reply]
Jamie 12:46 AM 05-05-2021
Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud:
It's pretty clear that Malcom Spellman had no business producing or writing TFATWS because it was a shit story with shit editing and looked a like Network TV show and NOT a Marvel MCU property worth $150 million dollars.
Well, you can blame him for the story, but he wasn't the editor and didn't direct a single episode. He didn't even know they were going to put "Captain America & the Winter Soldier" in the end titles of the last episode until he saw it in the cut.

I'm not even defending Spellman really, I just don't think it's a fair narrative that he singlehandedly fucked up the show. Or that's he's an inherently shitty writer who Marvel only hired because he's black.

Also I'd like to point out, we don't know to what extent they had to cut and paste the show back together to remove the virus subplot. The "shit editing" would indicate probably a lot. Especially considering the only editor credited on all 6 episodes is Jeffrey Ford, who edited all the Captain America and Avengers movies.

Originally Posted by :
I realize that you can use Wikipedia or IMDB to "dispute" but your post is rooted in complete and utter nonsense.
Facts are bullshit, good point.

Originally Posted by :
The Russo's, James Gunn and especially Joss Whedon (who I actually despise) paid their dues for more than a decade before being handed a huge, expensive, blockbuster property.
Destin Daniel Cretton directed his first film 13 years ago.

Originally Posted by :
And IMDB doesn't account for all of those years spent as Writer's Assistants or PA's or any other type of work that's required to rise in the ranks.
IMDB does actually credit Writer's Assistants and PAs. None of these guys started out that way though.

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud:
And Jon Watts, not "John" was a big time music video director with a certain visual style, along with graduating from NYU film school.
Well, if we're being petty, you had "Daniel Creston (Shang Ti)" and "Marcus Spellman". Then you edited to fix the "Marcus" and still misspelled it "Malcom".

And was Watts a "big time" music video director? I think I've seen like two of these. But that's a tangent on Jon Watts that is beside the point. To reiterate, my point is Marvel isn't hiring minority directors who are way below the level of director they've hired in the past. Kevin Feige has even said publicly, they target young directors who have shown an ability to handle character, because they know the Marvel machine will handle the spectacle.
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