Originally Posted by RealSNR:
In the past, I think crap LBs were a part of our struggles. They're not everything, and you don't need a lineup of all pros to be good at stopping the run, and they're not as important as the DL, but in terms of decently reliable starters from year to year, the only constant thus far has been Hitchens. That's probably not good enough.
The Chiefs run defense improved a lot in the back end of 2019 partly because Ragland started coming into his own in the 4-3 and was actually playing pretty dang well. He was a bigger dude who wasn't the fastest but nor did he lumber around like an ox. He gave us that extra guy past the DL who was good at identifying the gaps and getting them filled.
I think just having some decent LBs around will hopefully fix some of our issues. Bolton I think played well and will keep improving, and if Gay is what we thought he could be during the preseason and he stays healthy, we should see a decent improvement throughout the season and beyond.
Bolton being able to focus on his intended role (thumper who can cover in a pinch) with Gay being able to focus on his (sideline to sideline coverage/playmaker) will make Bolton a lot more effective.
Obviously experience will as well, but Bolton's mind had to be going a mile a minute being asked to take on a larger set of responsibilities. I don't think the Chiefs were using Niemann the way they intended to use Gay because he just can't be that kind of guy.
Gay can do a lot to let Bolton focus on run support. [Reply]
Originally Posted by JPH83:
With hindsight I think his signing has been overhyped a little. He's been decent against the run but not elite and his pass rushing has gone backwards in recent years from what I've seen/heard. I was still surprised at how poor he looked though, but the Browns OL is legit.
So i guess as others have said it's a combo - Danna being a small DE and being manhandled a bit, Jones' naivety in the position, and every DI guy not really fronting up. I also think they need to focus on Wharton being a situational pass rusher not a run stuffer. Nnadi looked off the pace, maybe a bit undercooked. For his limited snaps I preferred the look of Saunders to Reed to be honest.
Nnadi was apparently not 100% and on a pitch count. He didn't start. [Reply]
Btw KC Lab on KCSN is the best podcast for really breaking down the Xs and Os. They went into depth on the defensive struggles against the run.
I had high hopes or the Jeff Allen / Mike DeVito podcast in this regard. Imagine what those guys could tell us about proper D-line and O-line play. But it looks like as former players they're never going to say a bad word about other players. Booo. [Reply]
The most encouraging thing I saw from the Cleveland game was that Cleveland should have been able to gash us in the second half. They couldn’t.
They had a big lead with only a half left to play. That should play right into their strengths.
Yet still, our defense clamped down and we were much better.
Had we had a big lead at half, then I wouldn’t take much away from our defense being better in the second half. Cleveland isn’t built to come back. They’re built to build a lead and strangle the life out of you with their running game. It didn’t work [Reply]
Originally Posted by Direckshun:
A couple things are working against them.
1. Frank Clark is an excellent run defender, and was missing in action.
2. Half the remaining DEs are still learning how to play DE.
3. Other DL are legit liabilities against the run.
Frank Clark has lost, seemingly, all of his burst off the edge, but he's still big, strong, smart DE who shuts down his edge to a Justin Houston-esque degree. Missing him is going to hurt your run defense. Hopefully he's back soon.
Of the remaining DEs, only Okafor and Danna have any idea what they're doing in their run responsibilities. You'll notice the Browns mostly challenged the Chiefs off tackle, where Chris Jones and Joshua Kaindoh have no earthly clue what they're doing or where they need to be going. Hopefully that situation rectifies itself by December, because we're going to have to beat some combination of Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Tennessee, or Baltimore in the AFC playoffs.
Lastly, the hardest problem to solve is that some of the DL we have simply aren't the run defense horses we need them to be, in particular Okafor and Wharton. I don't know what Spags was thinking having Wharton on the DL in a goalline stand (with Ben Niemann backing him up, no less). They ran right at him and washed him. Okafor plays the position at minimal competence and not much else. Danna is probably the smartest run defending DE we have on the roster other than Clark but his lack of size makes him movable in ways that Clark simply isn't. And Khalen Saunders simply doesn't hold up against smashmouth football.
There are other answers, such as the return of Gay, the continued progression of Nick Bolton who already looks pretty competent, and the return of Mathieu.
By the end of the season, I bet we'll be a bottom third run defense team, but if we can get these elements in place and see some progression without seeing much injury, we can hold up enough against the run in January to return to the Super Bowl. But we absolutely must see progression and avoid injury, because I don't want to have to bet on Baker/Roethlisberger/Tannehill/Jackson throwing a late INT to give the game away.
^this^ Frank is a stud setting the edge and it is under appreciated... [Reply]
Originally Posted by Hog's Gone Fishin:
Other teams need to keep up with Mahomes and our O. Not worried about run defense that much.
Yep. This Chiefs team is primarily built for airing it out, getting the lead and then defending the pass to defend the lead.
The Cleveland skid marks have arguably the best running attack and the best o-line in the league. They executed a good game plan to get the lead until the good guys decided to turn it on in the second half. [Reply]
Originally Posted by smithandrew051:
The most encouraging thing I saw from the Cleveland game was that Cleveland should have been able to gash us in the second half. They couldn’t.
They had a big lead with only a half left to play. That should play right into their strengths.
Yet still, our defense clamped down and we were much better.
Had we had a big lead at half, then I wouldn’t take much away from our defense being better in the second half. Cleveland isn’t built to come back. They’re built to build a lead and strangle the life out of you with their running game. It didn’t work
I agree. Seems like Spags guards the entire field starting out the game and guarding the entire field means you give up first downs early if the offense executes.
Browns had to go for it on 4th down several times in the game. NFL football is a little different now with teams declining FGs and punts on 4th and short.
Chiefs D stopped Browns on last few drives and Chiefs had one lead all game and stopped 2 drives. One after the Chiefs had a chance to end game with a better 4-minute offense.
Unless people on chiefs planet are making prop bets on rushing yards in first half, I don't quite understand all of this expectation that the Chiefs will win every play. The other team has great players and practices and has good coaches.
In today's NFL, you show me a team and coaching staff that is trying to win every play so that the yardage totals are 500 yards total offense for our team and 150 yards total offense for the other guys, and I will show you an injured reserve list as long as as your arm.
IMO, many of the backdoor covers the Chiefs gave last year after playing with big leads was about playing to the game situation as far as getting the win and not worried about the stats. And, trying to stay healthy for the whole year, without playing soft. [Reply]
Originally Posted by IowaHawkeyeChief:
^this^ Frank is a stud setting the edge and it is under appreciated...
Clark was nothing resembling a stud at setting the edge last year and any clear-eyed analysis of his 2020 season established that.
This is people digging into an argument from the 2019 season when he was solid at setting the run for the first 10 weeks and pretty well useless elsewhere so the myth of "Frank Clark: Premier Run Defender" was born to justify his poor play over the first 2/3 or so of the season.
He's not. He's a fine run defender when his bubble gut or whatever isn't acting up on him. Last season he was a shite run defender and who the hell knows what he'll actually be this season?
The problem is that Danna is undersized trying to play DE (especially height; makes it hard to keep a punch away from you with a driving OL) and Okafor has always played lighter than he should. The Chiefs don't have a great alternative to Clark in that regard, so Clark will be an upgrade (hopefully). If only because the guys we have behind him are just not equipped to do so. [Reply]
Niemann did make this open field tackle on Hunt, which is damn near impossible to do. It was a big play to keep him from running OOB or getting more yardage, and they didn't get another play off before the 2 minute warning.
Holy crap the new Gamepass is godawful. It's so many clicks just to get to the game you want. The video player barely works. And the preview at the bottom of the Chiefs game for when you move the little slider to go forward or back - is some kind of medley of every game. [Reply]
Originally Posted by IowaHawkeyeChief:
^this^ Frank is a stud setting the edge and it is under appreciated...
So why is it we've been the same run defense with and without Clark? Hell even if you compare the two games against the Browns. In the playoffs with Clark we gave up 5.3 ypc to Chubb and Hunt. Last week we have up 5.5.
Whoa, that edge set up accounts for a whole 0.2ypc difference! Massive!
You really like trying to force this Clark set the edge narrative. Are we better with Clark in rather than Danna? Of course. Is it a massive difference? Not really. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Toad:
Yep. This Chiefs team is primarily built for airing it out, getting the lead and then defending the pass to defend the lead.
This. It is a similar philosophy (although the schemes are different) to the Colts defenses when they had Manning. Those Colts defenses also similarly had trouble stopping physical running teams. [Reply]
Originally Posted by KCChiefsFan88:
This. It is a similar philosophy (although the schemes are different) to the Colts defenses when they had Manning. Those Colts defenses also similarly had trouble stopping physical running teams.
For sure.
Some of the issues eventually come to the offense. They're built to score alot and put teams behind so they can't just lean on the run. [Reply]
Wow Joshua Kaindoh actually got quite a bit more snaps than I thought he did. He was in on 12 snaps or 20% of the defensive snaps this game. On Chubb's long TD run, he doesn't notice the O lineman pulling and he is easily neutralized with no one else there to stop Chubb. Frank Clark being more experienced doesn't let that happen and either makes the tackle or forces Chubb back inside.
Not having our best/2nd best defender in Mathieu, our fastest and what we are hoping is our best LB Gay, and missing Clark was a huge reason why our run D was lacking. Hell having just one of those guys probably makes a substantial difference. [Reply]
