Honestly, I’d rather keep him along the interior where he is elite. But Stout mentioned that the base DL is Jones and Clark on the edges with Reed and Nnadi along the interior.
That’s a big risk the team is taking, and the early returns in spot duty last year were not encouraging.
But Stout mentions that Jones has slimmed down a ton as well, clearly prepared to take a stronger role at RDE.
Maybe the most important thing to watch for our defense.
He also mentions Humphrey is your starting center. [Reply]
Originally Posted by KCrockaholic:
That's fine, but then who is your outside edge in these situation? The Chiefs lack edge depth right now moreso than interior (Until CJ was moved to DE). They need a guy that can contain these athletic QB's these days in those situations
Right now, it's Danna, Charlton, and Kaindoh. [Reply]
All of whom can contain the outside while Jones is wrecking the middle. I don't worry about it anymore, Spags is much better at defending the mobile QB's than his predecessor. [Reply]
Originally Posted by htismaqe:
Why would they play him at DE on long passing downs?
That doesn't make much sense to me at all. Those would be the plays where he should be inside.
I think the majority of his play will be inside with Reed and Clark to his right, but there are reasons why he could play DE on those downs.
1. They probably want Wharton on the field for some packages with Reed, Jones and Clark as they are our best 4 pass rushers
2. They probably have some rush designs set up with Jones at DE that they think will be a nice wrinkle
3. And most importantly as you said a few posts ago:
Originally Posted by htismaqe:
Right now, it's Danna, Charlton, and Kaindoh.
Originally Posted by Chris Meck:
I swear to god, man, some of you guys act like we're going to go 6-11 and our coaching staff is a bunch of morons.
What the fuck?
Innovation tends to breed success, even if only in the short term. If you’ve got a coaching staff that seeks to make the team unique in some way, you’re usually doing it right.
The Chiefs are probably the best in the NFL in terms of overall talent of interior penetrators. Reed and Jones are both top 5, Wharton has a lot of promise, and Saunders could also be great if he can stay healthy. They’re being innovative with how to get all these guys on the field.
How could anybody possibly be a sour puss about this? [Reply]
Originally Posted by RealSNR:
Direckshun, can you tell me why you think this plan the Chiefs have for Jones isn't going to work out?
The dude had consecutive years of double digit sacks as a 3-4 end. As a 4-3 end, he's just getting moved over one ****ing gap. Big whoop. Yeah, for some guys that's a big deal. It would be stupid for the Chiefs to ask that out of Derrick Nnadi. But when you're big and athletic and you've basically for all intents and purposes DONE THAT JOB for the first three seasons of your career, that's not a monumental task.
This isn't OL. We're not asking a G to move over and play OT. We're taking a player who has a track record of mauling shit while lined up in a variety of positions and telling him to go blow more shit up.
It has a good chance of working out. And if it doesn't? Well shit, Chris Jones will surely never be able to move back to the interior! At least not until he has a full offseason of work at that position!
Moving a DT to DE is actually more challenging than moving a guard to tackle.
There have been a fair number of guards that have played decent tackle over the course of NFL history. That's why a number of guards have done it over the years and virtually zero DTs have effectively done the move to DE.
I can't believe I'm typing this on a football message board to a group of men who follow football as a primary hobby, but 3-4 DE and 4-3 DE are completely different positions that require completely different skillsets.
Namely: 3-4 DEs primarily match up against guards. They're essentially tackles. Therefore they can afford to be big bodied bears because you're fighting in tighter spaces, which puts less of a premium on the bendy kind of speed-to-power mechanics that you need to challenge an NFL tackle's outside shoulder. Instead, you need to be able to win in the phone booth -- which Chris Jones is a Top 3 talent at doing.
To directly answer your question:
He is incredibly strong and incredibly quick for a guy his size with stupid long arms, but those talents could very well dwindle against NFL tackles who are bigger, longer, quicker, and stronger. Tackles are better football players than guards. You beat them by threatening their outside shoulder and then countering them into oblivion. Jones cannot threaten their outside shoulder -- he's never had the job of bending the edge or converting speed to power. And since tackles will simply not worry about their outside shoulder, they can convert their combat with Jones into a phone booth battle they're built to win. Jones will win some snaps, I'm sure, but the percentage will be so much lower on the edge against tackles than it will be along the interior against inferior guards who have no chance against him.
Jarran Reed helps some, but he is a different kind of passrusher. He can push the pocket and eventually swallow up plays if his teammates do their jobs well. He's also stupendous against the run. But Jones can end plays in the first 2.5 seconds with a great rush.
I'm of the opinion that when you have a guy on your team who is the best in the league at a really important position, you don't move him to another position.
But that seems to be what we're doing, at least part time.
Originally Posted by Chris Meck:
Again, you're hung up on your concept of position and prototypes.
You're exactly who I'm talking about.
Wharton's still here. Now Reed is here. And so is Jones.
So yeah, you'll see a chunk of snaps with those three and Clark. Why is this a problem for you? Why isn't it simply a way of getting your best players on the field at the same time?
legit 4-3 base DE? We're in a base 4-3 like a third of the time. We're usually in a heavy nickel type or dime defense with like 4 safeties. I think you're looking at things through an outdated conventional lens when that's not really how this team operates (or really, the NFL in 2021, but KC is certainly on the front edge of innovation I think we'd all have to agree-particularly on offense.)
Kpass was like 290 lbs, huge for a 4-3 DE, so yeah they moved him inside some on passing downs. Why is this like...groundbreaking news for you?
Obviously, they've liked the positional flexibility of having Jones be able to play inside and outside.
Is this just another thing with you, like not liking Veach's tier system?
Because it seems like it.
I think these guys have shown me that 1)they know more about football than I do, 2) They've earned the right to implement their plans before I'm going to criticize and 3) They are constantly innovating from the front office on down and nobody really knows what they're going to do, so wringing our hands about stuff in March, and May, and June when we have no real idea what they're going to do is silly.
Hey Chris,
I'm not remotely sure if you are properly processing the points I'm making here. Like, I'm literally not sure if you're reading my posts or if you're scanning them and hitting reply.
You say: "of COURSE they moved Kpass in -- why is this news!?" and then you gas on a bit.
I literallly did not say it was news, I was simply describing the system that we're sliding Jones into, in order to set the foundation for my perspective. So I literally don't know where your exasperation is coming from on that point -- or on many of your points.
Tell you what, it's OTAs and we won't know Jones' role until the snaps are live. So let's start with the basics here.
What do you think Jones' role is going to be? Because we're just reading tea leaves at this point.
I think we're looking at him playing roughly 35-45% of his snaps at DE on the strong side. The rest will be in his usual interior habitat.
Do you agree with that prediction, or not? [Reply]
Originally Posted by Direckshun:
Moving a DT to DE is actually more challenging than moving a guard to tackle.
There have been a fair number of guards that have played decent tackle over the course of NFL history. That's why a number of guards have done it over the years and virtually zero DTs have effectively done the move to DE.
I can't believe I'm typing this on a football message board to a group of men who follow football as a primary hobby, but 3-4 DE and 4-3 DE are completely different positions that require completely different skillsets.
Namely: 3-4 DEs primarily match up against guards. They're essentially tackles. Therefore they can afford to be big bodied bears because you're fighting in tighter spaces, which puts less of a premium on the bendy kind of speed-to-power mechanics that you need to challenge an NFL tackle's outside shoulder. Instead, you need to be able to win in the phone booth -- which Chris Jones is a Top 3 talent at doing.
To directly answer your question:
He is incredibly strong and incredibly quick for a guy his size with stupid long arms, but those talents could very well dwindle against NFL tackles who are bigger, longer, quicker, and stronger. Tackles are better football players than guards. You beat them by threatening their outside shoulder and then countering them into oblivion. Jones cannot threaten their outside shoulder -- he's never had the job of bending the edge or converting speed to power. And since tackles will simply not worry about their outside shoulder, they can convert their combat with Jones into a phone booth battle they're built to win. Jones will win some snaps, I'm sure, but the percentage will be so much lower on the edge against tackles than it will be along the interior against inferior guards who have no chance against him.
Jarran Reed helps some, but he is a different kind of passrusher. He can push the pocket and eventually swallow up plays if his teammates do their jobs well. He's also stupendous against the run. But Jones can end plays in the first 2.5 seconds with a great rush.
I'm of the opinion that when you have a guy on your team who is the best in the league at a really important position, you don't move him to another position.
But that seems to be what we're doing, at least part time.
Time will tell, I suppose.
You're kind of making a mountain out of a molehill with this transition. No, there aren't many interior guys in the NFL who can bounce out to DE in a 4-3 and have success. Jones is one of the few with the explosion and quickness to play the position while letting his size be an advantage. I know what the fuck a 3-4 DE does, dude. Jones was a 1-gap 5-technique guy, so he saw plenty of matchups (not to mention double teams FFS) involving the OT when he played in a 3-4. Again, the textbook says this is how these positions go, but this is the modern NFL, where unreal humans like Chris Jones exist. It's a bit of a roll of the dice, but we have an entire regular season to figure out whether it will work, need more time to gel, or just get scrapped and go back to keeping Jones on the inside and rotating guys through those spots. But they're clearly keen on rolling the dice in the name of getting more of those fantastic DTs of ours on the field, and I applaud this move.
Until one of the young guys like Danna turns into a solid starting DE where it becomes a hindrance to take him off the field, we should absolutely be exploring these kinds of alignments. If it works, it has potential to really be a nightmare for OCs. [Reply]
Originally Posted by RealSNR:
You're kind of making a mountain out of a molehill with this transition. No, there aren't many interior guys in the NFL who can bounce out to DE in a 4-3 and have success. Jones is one of the few with the explosion and quickness to play the position while letting his size be an advantage. I know what the **** a 3-4 DE does, dude. Jones was a 1-gap 5-technique guy, so he saw plenty of matchups (not to mention double teams FFS) involving the OT when he played in a 3-4. Again, the textbook says this is how these positions go, but this is the modern NFL, where unreal humans like Chris Jones exist. It's a bit of a roll of the dice, but we have an entire regular season to figure out whether it will work, need more time to gel, or just get scrapped and go back to keeping Jones on the inside and rotating guys through those spots. But they're clearly keen on rolling the dice in the name of getting more of those fantastic DTs of ours on the field, and I applaud this move.
Until one of the young guys like Danna turns into a solid starting DE where it becomes a hindrance to take him off the field, we should absolutely be exploring these kinds of alignments. If it works, it has potential to really be a nightmare for OCs.
So I do agree with your last paragraph -- that with the roster we have right now, we need to start being creative with the talent on the roster to figure out that other DE position. That's why I've been groaning for months about the DE2 position, for the record: the talent we have at DE outside of Frank Clark (himself a troublesome situation) is less than awesome, and now it's forcing our hand to experiment with moving a Top 3 player out of position. (It's a change that Jones has been actively begging for, so that is a little encouraging, but still.)
Anyway, I don't think this is a roll of the dice. Jones has shown up to camp in a "Spags DE" bodyshape, per reports. I think we're legit putting our eggs in this basket, and I do think it's been a plan for a while, which is why we didn't make a bigtime push for a DE in the draft or free agency. I think they're banking on this working, so I don't think this is a mere molehill.
Let me ask you what I asked Chris in a previous post: what do you think we're looking at here, as we read the OTA tea leaves? My general opinion is that we're looking at Jones playing strongside DE in the base roughly 35-45% of his snaps. You? [Reply]
Originally Posted by Direckshun:
So I do agree with your last paragraph -- that with the roster we have right now, we need to start being creative with the talent on the roster to figure out that other DE position. That's why I've been groaning for months about the DE2 position, for the record: the talent we have at DE outside of Frank Clark (himself a troublesome situation) is less than awesome, and now it's forcing our hand to experiment with moving a Top 3 player out of position. (It's a change that Jones has been actively begging for, so that is a little encouraging, but still.)
Anyway, I don't think this is a roll of the dice. Jones has shown up to camp in a "Spags DE" bodyshape, per reports. I think we're legit putting our eggs in this basket, and I do think it's been a plan for a while, which is why we didn't make a bigtime push for a DE in the draft or free agency. I think they're banking on this working, so I don't think this is a mere molehill.
Let me ask you what I asked Chris in a previous post: what do you think we're looking at here, as we read the OTA tea leaves? My general opinion is that we're looking at Jones playing strongside DE in the base roughly 35-45% of his snaps. You?
I don't really care how much they play Jones at DE. It's going to depend on matchup, and I don't view the expected percentage or breakdown of snaps at each line position to be relevant.
And I'm not worried about Jones and his "Spags DE" body shape. He can still easily play most of his snaps on the interior if need be. What weight was he playing at last year? What's he going to play at this year? They're not going to ask him to drop 30 lbs or something ridiculous like that. And again... if the Chiefs decide that Jones at DE just isn't working out, they have the entire regular season to make that decision to just keep him at DT. [Reply]
Originally Posted by RealSNR:
I don't really care how much they play Jones at DE. It's going to depend on matchup, and I don't view the expected percentage or breakdown of snaps at each line position to be relevant.
And I'm not worried about Jones and his "Spags DE" body shape. He can still easily play most of his snaps on the interior if need be. What weight was he playing at last year? What's he going to play at this year? They're not going to ask him to drop 30 lbs or something ridiculous like that. And again... if the Chiefs decide that Jones at DE just isn't working out, they have the entire regular season to make that decision to just keep him at DT.
A Spags DE bodyshape is roughly 30 pounds lighter than Jones, give or take, actually. I haven't seen any pictures of him, however; just reading reporting. So I think they've put their eggs in that basket.
Which, personally, I think is a big deal. If he's throwing a third of his snaps away at DE, which I fear he will be, then we may have issues getting a rush going.
Time will tell, though. I don't want to put the cart before the horse here. [Reply]