Originally Posted by tredadda:
You are arguing with a guy who's avatar is a picture of Wolverine looking at Dorsey, a GM that has been fired by not one, but two franchises and currently can't get a GM job. There's an old saying about arguing with fools.
In regards to Veach, he isn't perfect but he has done a fairly good job so far. He has missed on picks as all GMs do. What I think is fascinating and overlooked in the Clark situation is how he was signed to a five year deal that is more like a three year deal. If Clark performed like Veach hoped he would, we get five great years out of him. If he doesn't then we cut bait after three with almost no financial impact. No one (outside armchair GMs with the benefit of hindsight) could have predicted Clark would fall this far this fast. He's at an age where he should be hitting his prime.
It's funny to me that Veach's haters talk about he sucks drafting with high picks and then wig out when he trades those picks away. I guess it's just easier to look dreamily at a former GM who was fired twice. At least the Ballard drums have been silenced given how bad Indy is this year. I genuinely wonder who his haters would prefer outside of the twice fired Dorsey.
People don’t seem to understand how hard it is to be a great GM.
There isn’t somebody that fits the unrealistic expectations somebody has if they think Veach sucks. It’s just that simple. If you think he sucks, you would be firing GM’s left and right.
The unfortunate thing is that there’s a lot of luck involved too. I’m almost certain we’d be talking about guys like Thornhill and Gay as huge hits if it weren’t for injuries. Even then, the book isn’t exactly written on those guys either.
Then you have guys like Sneed and Niang who obviously have had their struggles this year, but considering where they were drafted and the obvious potential, they could just as easily be hits down the road. Sneed in particular is being written off way too quickly. He hasn’t been nearly as bad as people make it seem.
I also think guys like Danna and Fenton don’t get enough credit. Those are the kind of guys you want in the late rounds. Those are absolutely “hits” to anybody that knows what they’re talking about.
Nnadi is also a guy that is 100% a “hit”. If you go back and look at that draft, he’s easily one of the best picks on day 2. It was a truly awful group, not just Breeland Speaks. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Mecca:
Blowing a first round RB pick is just insane though. Had they taken Higgins or Shenault that's wat more defensible.
Still the 32nd pick on a team that had very few holes and could afford to take a chance on him. It's not like he was a Saquon or Fournette. Receiver at the time was not a need. They still had Watkins and Hardman came off a solid rookie season. [Reply]
Originally Posted by staylor26:
People don’t seem to understand how hard it is to be a great GM.
There isn’t somebody that fits the unrealistic expectations somebody has if they think Veach sucks. It’s just that simple. If you think he sucks, you would be firing GM’s left and right.
The unfortunate thing is that there’s a lot of luck involved too. I’m almost certain we’d be talking about guys like Thornhill and Gay as huge hits if it weren’t for injuries. Even then, the book isn’t exactly written on those guys either.
Then you have guys like Sneed and Niang who obviously have had their struggles this year, but considering where they were drafted and the obvious potential, they could just as easily be hits down the road. Sneed in particular is being written off way too quickly. He hasn’t been nearly as bad as people make it seem.
I also think guys like Danna and Fenton don’t get enough credit. Those are the kind of guys you want in the late rounds. Those are absolutely “hits” to anybody that knows what they’re talking about.
Nnadi is also a guy that is 100% a “hit”. If you go back and look at that draft, he’s easily one of the best picks on day 2. It was a truly awful group, not just Breeland Speaks.
No one had issues with the Thornhill pick until now and some think he's a bust. He was playing very well pre injury and if he never gets back to there, it's hard to put that on any GM considering that you can't predict that. If Gay could shed his Watkins disease and get his mind right, he could still be a stud. No issues with the Sneed pick right now as it would be hard to look good in the secondary when the Dline generates no pressure at all.
So far it's looking like the Creed and Trey picks are outstanding. Worry not though if they struggle any you can expect more Veach sucks comments from a few. The comments will typically be "Veach is terrible because he drafted Creed or Trey when he should have drafted ______". No one will come out right now and call either a bust, they will wait till later (if it happens) and say "I told you so". [Reply]
Originally Posted by DRM08:
I'm not sure how much of a clean slate it's going to be. Mahomes, Tyreek, and Kelce are all going to have higher cap hits in the future. Much higher than right now in the case of Mahomes. It seems like a lot of the "bad" money on guys like Clark/Hitchens is just going to shift to the Big Three (Mahomes in particular).
It's pretty obvious that Veach is very aggressive and he gave a strong effort to fix the OL during this past offseason. I hope he can do something similar with the defense, WR corps, RB corps. So far there have been a lot of busts in those areas lately. He has his work cut out for him. I hope he can have major success fixing these issues.
Bulk of our bad super bowl bandaid contracts go away next year. Hitchens, Clark, duvarney tariff. Then you have jarran Reed. You're talking $45m contracts. And last year is proof that it should be good enough to work for us. I still believe a lot of our regression this year is misuse of talent.
If he turned around our defense and OL in one offseason, he can improve our defense too. The bigger question is if spags can turn this thing around. If he can't, then it doesn't matter what players yoh bring in. [Reply]
Originally Posted by staylor26:
People don’t seem to understand how hard it is to be a great GM.
There isn’t somebody that fits the unrealistic expectations somebody has if they think Veach sucks. It’s just that simple. If you think he sucks, you would be firing GM’s left and right.
The unfortunate thing is that there’s a lot of luck involved too. I’m almost certain we’d be talking about guys like Thornhill and Gay as huge hits if it weren’t for injuries. Even then, the book isn’t exactly written on those guys either.
Then you have guys like Sneed and Niang who obviously have had their struggles this year, but considering where they were drafted and the obvious potential, they could just as easily be hits down the road. Sneed in particular is being written off way too quickly. He hasn’t been nearly as bad as people make it seem.
I also think guys like Danna and Fenton don’t get enough credit. Those are the kind of guys you want in the late rounds. Those are absolutely “hits” to anybody that knows what they’re talking about.
Nnadi is also a guy that is 100% a “hit”. If you go back and look at that draft, he’s easily one of the best picks on day 2. It was a truly awful group, not just Breeland Speaks.
Oh you do understand how hard it is to be a GM? How would you know?
Stfu.. Veach came into a situation most NFL GMs would dream of... as years have gone on w him as a GM the team is getting worse, not better. That's not sign of a good GM. [Reply]
I think this partly depends on what your expectations are for draft picks in different rounds and where in those rounds they land. Same with FA acquistions and trades. A lot of this you can read either way based on that. If you think any R1 or R2 pick should be an immediate top player, he's drafted poorly.
On trades, if you think Clark was vital to get an SB and a single SB is good enough with Mahomes, it's a good trade. If you think there was another DE who could've offered more then and now, he's been dreadful.
The case in defence of Veach was the original defensive rebuild, and then Creed and Smith this year. You could also say he's been unlucky with injuries and poor coaching decisions relating to Gay and Thornhill.
The case against is - which picks have been regular, top level contributors to this team? Which players traded for are making this team better right now or performing well? That might not all be on him. As others have said, there's obvious issues with coaching, scheme, injuries. But it's less flattering. [Reply]
Would also agree with people saying that some of the later round picks have been valuable contributors and probably offered more than you should expect from those picks. [Reply]
Originally Posted by comochiefsfan:
Look, I appreciate what Clark did during that run. He played well for three days. He helped us win. I still think we would've won without him, but he undoubtedly played a role.
My main thing is that I am deeply concerned about the direction of this franchise. We have the QB in place. I'm not sure where we stand on the coach long term and I don't think we have the answer at GM right now.
So major question marks at two crucial spots.
Reid is in declining health, he won't be here much longer and frankly I'm beginning to wonder how much gas he has left anyway. A succession plan needs to be formulating in Clark's mind.
As far as the GM, Brett Veach ain't it guys. I'm embellishing a bit but I honestly think the guy is a turd.
He whiffed on Frank Clark and gave him a fuck ton of money, he whiffed on the entire 2018 draft. He whiffed on the entire 2019 draft. Sneed looked promising last year but seems to have regressed this season. Besides that, 2020 looks like a bust. 21 has some good pieces in Creed and Trey Smith, and Bolton isn't bad but the jury is still out in the long run.
He dumped a bunch of money into the defense and it's the worst in the league, he's failed to replace Kareem Hunt, he's failed to provide Mahomes with viable weapons outside of Hill and Kelce and he's had 3 years to do it.
At best the team has stagnated under his watch, but now the backward slide looks like it's beginning and we're an injury from Hill or Kelce away from it getting REAL ugly.
This team has very little talent outside of the superstars John Dorsey drafted. Those guys will only be able to carry us for so long. When they can't anymore, then what? Veach hasn't been able to infuse any significant talent into this team on his own. There's no one waiting in the wings. The cupboard is startlingly bare.
And that's my biggest issue with Veach. Anyone can find a Mike Pennel, or a Bashaud Breeland. Small moves to supplement a team. But Veach hasn't added IMPACT players to this team. Mathieu has been good, but besides that, we haven't added an elite player to this roster since Veach took over. And you need those guys to win big in this league.
You can hate John Dorsey all you want, but he added Kelce, Hill, Mahomes, Jones, Schwartz, Hunt and Peters in 5 years. 7 elite players. And 6 of those were drafted. Two were first round picks and none of them were higher than 10th overall. So I don't want to hear any excuses about where Veach has been picking.
The way Veach is handling the draft and this roster is not sustainable, it WILL catch up to us, and it's going to be what ends up wasting Mahomes' prime which is an absolute shame.
We've all been willing to put our heads in the sand while we've been winning big on the back of Dorsey's players. We've tricked ourselves in believing that Mahomes doesn't need anyone else and can do it all on his own.
But he needs help and Veach simply isn't giving him enough. I know no one wants to hear it, but don't say I didn't warn you.
Dorsey is now a consultant with the Eagles. The guy wears his welcome out fast. There is a reason he does some good work but cant hold a GM job. [Reply]
Originally Posted by staylor26:
People don’t seem to understand how hard it is to be a great GM.
There isn’t somebody that fits the unrealistic expectations somebody has if they think Veach sucks. It’s just that simple. If you think he sucks, you would be firing GM’s left and right.
The unfortunate thing is that there’s a lot of luck involved too. I’m almost certain we’d be talking about guys like Thornhill and Gay as huge hits if it weren’t for injuries. Even then, the book isn’t exactly written on those guys either.
Then you have guys like Sneed and Niang who obviously have had their struggles this year, but considering where they were drafted and the obvious potential, they could just as easily be hits down the road. Sneed in particular is being written off way too quickly. He hasn’t been nearly as bad as people make it seem.
I also think guys like Danna and Fenton don’t get enough credit. Those are the kind of guys you want in the late rounds. Those are absolutely “hits” to anybody that knows what they’re talking about.
Nnadi is also a guy that is 100% a “hit”. If you go back and look at that draft, he’s easily one of the best picks on day 2. It was a truly awful group, not just Breeland Speaks.
Here's the issue - you're citing an awful lot of solid to unspectacular players here.
At the present clip in about 3 years this teams going to be Mahomes, an aging Hill/Kelce, and a massive pile of mediocre.
That's a 10 win football team.
Yes, Nnadi is absolutely a hit. So are Sneed and Niang. But unless Sneed rediscovers his form, none of those guys are cornerstone players. Bolton isn't a cornerstone player even if he develops how you'd like. Humphrey might be but the positional value holds him back.
At some point he's gotta start back-filling for players that are going to age out on him. And not merely solid players - he needs to find some great ones.
Otherwise this team's going to atrophy into a good but not great football team and it will have happened on his watch.
There's a path to winning on nothing but singles hitters (the Royals did it, afterall) but it requires that you never strike out or ground into a double play. Veach is finding his singles hitters but he's also striking out a fair bit. He's either got up his hit rate or his hits have to be bigger.
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
Here's the issue - you're citing an awful lot of solid to unspectacular players here.
At the present clip in about 3 years this teams going to be Mahomes, an aging Hill/Kelce, and a massive pile of mediocre.
That's a 10 win football team.
Yes, Nnadi is absolutely a hit. So are Sneed and Niang. But unless Sneed rediscovers his form, none of those guys are cornerstone players. Bolton isn't a cornerstone player even if he develops how you'd like. Humphrey might be but the positional value holds him back.
At some point he's gotta start back-filling for players that are going to age out on him. And not merely solid players - he needs to find some great ones.
Otherwise this team's going to atrophy into a good but not great football team and it will have happened on his watch.
There's a path to winning on nothing but singles hitters (the Royals did it, afterall) but it requires that you never strike out or ground into a double play. Veach is finding his singles hitters but he's also striking out a fair bit. He's either got up his hit rate or his hits have to be bigger.
Right now he's looking pretty fungible.
Agree with all of this, including the point re Creed's positional value. He's also reaping what he sowed with trades and cap space, and FA decisions. It's one thing finding good players through trades, it's another hitting on top players with rookie contracts. He's going to have to hit on a R1 pick soon.
It might be too early to write off Sneed, Thornhill, Gay, Niang, CEH etc. But it's also far too early to claim them as successes given how little they've been able to contribute this far. I'd say Nnadi probably has the best case for a sustained, positive impact on the team from earlier round picks. [Reply]
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
Here's the issue - you're citing an awful lot of solid to unspectacular players here.
At the present clip in about 3 years this teams going to be Mahomes, an aging Hill/Kelce, and a massive pile of mediocre.
That's a 10 win football team.
Yes, Nnadi is absolutely a hit. So are Sneed and Niang. But unless Sneed rediscovers his form, none of those guys are cornerstone players. Bolton isn't a cornerstone player even if he develops how you'd like. Humphrey might be but the positional value holds him back.
At some point he's gotta start back-filling for players that are going to age out on him. And not merely solid players - he needs to find some great ones.
Otherwise this team's going to atrophy into a good but not great football team and it will have happened on his watch.
There's a path to winning on nothing but singles hitters (the Royals did it, afterall) but it requires that you never strike out or ground into a double play. Veach is finding his singles hitters but he's also striking out a fair bit. He's either got up his hit rate or his hits have to be bigger.
Right now he's looking pretty fungible.
I still think guys like Gay, Niang, Sneed, and even Thornhill have that kind of upside (cornerstones), but they obviously aren’t there yet. Most of those guys have played just 5 games into year 2. Not many guys develop into cornerstone players THAT fast.
I also think it’s hard to find those guys when you’re drafting without a 1st round pick almost every year. Yes, I know Kelce and Hill were drafted outside of the 1st, but they’re obviously exceptions to the rule and we were extremely lucky to get them where we did.
I get it, until he does you can just sit there and say he can’t, but I have no doubt that you will be proven wrong that he can’t in time. This team is entering an entire new phase with Mahomes no longer on a rookie deal, and it seems inevitable that they start to build more through the draft as opposed to making big trades. Veach’s drafts have gotten better and better, and I have full confidence that he will put a few good ones together over the next few years. [Reply]
Originally Posted by staylor26:
Also DJ, let’s talk about your boy Ballard…
How many cornerstone players does he have to show for with an extra year and much more to work with in terms of draft capital?
That’s fucking dude is still living off of his Nelson and Leonard draft, yet I don’t see you being nearly as critical of him.
And Smith. And that Nelson/Leonard/Smith draft was exceptional so yeah, he gets a lot of credit for that.
Okereke is looking like an awfully good player and Ya Sin is showing in fits and starts. Wouldn't you like having Julian Blackmon on this team right now? Michael Pittman Jr? And I don't think CEH vs. Jonathan Taylor is worth additional discussion at the moment.
Ballard entered an organization only to see his franchise QB immediately retire because his OL murdered him. Veach had one in his pocket on a rookie deal with 2 HoF pass-catchers and a pair of bookend pro-bowl tackles.
Their respective starting points couldn't have been more dissimilar. And yes, the Chiefs have had more success than the Colts but it's not because of things Veach has done in that time period. It's because of the foundation he started with.
I don't think Ballard's draft record is the argument I'd be trying to make - it's been better than Veach's. Now I do think there's a chance that Veach closes the gap this year as I wasn't wildly impressed with the Colts draft. They've got a lot riding on Paye in this draft. And when we talk about picks being traded away - we moved a first and 2nd for Frank Clark. They moved a 1st for DeForest Buckner, who was an absolute stud for them last year and looks just as good this year.
I have a hard time coming up with an argument that Ballard hasn't out-performed Veach to this point when their respective decisions are viewed in a vacuum. [Reply]
So, Ballard is better than Veach because of his first draft, which he had a top 10 pick to work with?
Because there’s no way you’re going to tell me that guys like Michael Pittman, Bobby Okereke, Julian Blackmon are that much better than guys like Sneed, Bolton, Humphrey, Gay, Smith, Niang etc.
Yes, he’s had some solid picks since that draft, but it’s not remarkably better than what Veach has done through the draft at the same time. That’s with a huge difference in draft capital too. [Reply]
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
And Smith. And that Nelson/Leonard/Smith draft was exceptional so yeah, he gets a lot of credit for that.
Okereke is looking like an awfully good player and Ya Sin is showing in fits and starts. Wouldn't you like having Julian Blackmon on this team right now? Michael Pittman Jr? And I don't think CEH vs. Jonathan Taylor is worth additional discussion at the moment.
Ballard entered an organization only to see his franchise QB immediately retire because his OL murdered him. Veach had one in his pocket on a rookie deal with 2 HoF pass-catchers and a pair of bookend pro-bowl tackles.
Their respective starting points couldn't have been more dissimilar. And yes, the Chiefs have had more success than the Colts but it's not because of things Veach has done in that time period. It's because of the foundation he started with.
I don't think Ballard's draft record is the argument I'd be trying to make - it's been better than Veach's. Now I do think there's a chance that Veach closes the gap this year as I wasn't wildly impressed with the Colts draft. They've got a lot riding on Paye in this draft. And when we talk about picks being traded away - we moved a first and 2nd for Frank Clark. They moved a 1st for DeForest Buckner, who was an absolute stud for them last year and looks just as good this year.
I have a hard time coming up with an argument that Ballard hasn't out-performed Veach to this point when their respective decisions are viewed in a vacuum.
Ballard has built a hell of a foundation in Indy.
He's going to have to make a move for a QB soon, but he's 100% better than Veach.
The truth is that I believe Hunt and Reid didn't want either Dorsey or Ballard here. Those guys are too competent at their jobs and wouldn't have tolerated being 100% deferential to anything that Andy wants which Veach is.
Andy got his feelings hurt when Dorsey cut Maclin without asking his permission.
Hunt got pissed when Dorsey pushed back on signing Berry to a big contract.
Those two decided they wanted complete and unquestioned control and so they pushed out the two competent GMs on the roster and installed a Yes Man stooge in Veach who they could tell to do whatever they wanted.
They played up the fact that Veach was the scout on Mahomes in order to trick the fans into thinking he was some sort of savant young GM and have since been content to let him Piledrive this roster into the ground, as long as he doesn't question their authority.
Reid is a great coach, but he also has a huge ego and Hunt is infatuated with Andy.
Because of that, we kicked two of the best talent evaluators in the league out the door and installed a dud. Great organizations check their egos at the door and are able to work together in order to achieve something greater than themselves.
Reid and Hunt couldn't do that and that's what is ultimately going to doom this potential dynasty.
If I'm Hunt, I'm begging Dorsey to come back. It's not too late if we act after this season. But if we wait too long then Mahomes' prime is going to pass by with only one ring and we're going to be left wondering what if. [Reply]