This thread has drifted quite a bit from the original topic.

I liked "Watchmen". But I also got to see it in IMAX about 50 times. I liked the story, the music, the acting, the editing, the effects, the cinematography. I also didn't read the comic, though, so I had nothing to color my judgement.

I didn't like "The Dark Knight" as much as everyone else. I thought it was solid, but I didn't think it was "OMG the best movie ever!" as so many did. Ledger's acting (and then his death) sort of overshadowed the film, and the character of Batman. That, plus every time that ugly Glyllenhall chick was on screen.... yeesh.

I also enjoyed "Superman Returns", although it sort of jumped the shark when Baby Superman made his presence halfway through the film. I think it would've been a better film if they'd either totally ignored the first films, or totally took in the first films. To try to jump off after "Superman II" was sort of troublesome, especially since that film ended so stupidly. I didn't mind Routh or his emo-moody acting; if Nolan gets props for humanizing Batman into a tortured soul, I don't know why Routh trying to show Superman as emotional was such a big issue. I'd put "Superman Returns" with "Spiderman 3": not great, not awful, just sort of "there".

I think Snyder and Nolan basically make the same type of story, humanizing their superheroes and making them flawed and conflicted. There is a stylistic difference, to be sure, but I'm not sure either one of them helming the next Superman film would make much of a difference.
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I'm kind of bringing this off track again, but "humanizing their superheroes" is probably the reason I think Marvel superheroes blow DC's out of the water. Obviously they're doing a good job of it now with Supes and Batman, but how can the average person relate to the Green Lantern, Wonder Woman, and the Martian Manhunter? On the other hand, you've got Spider-Man, the Hulk, and Iron Man on the Marvel side.

Moral of the story? Marvel> DC
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Oh, I think they can all be humanized. You really can't create a superhero who isn't humanized (at least, not a popular one). The reason people enjoy superheroes is because they can identify, empathize, desire to be them, whatever; if a superhero were literally "inhuman" they, and their exploits, wouldn't be very interesting.

I think Batman has always been humanized from the get-go. He was always just a regular guy, and even the first film with Michael Keaton did a good job on that. Wonder Woman, they actually did a decent job with the Lynda Carter TV series, I thought (for it's time, at least). Aren't they doing a Green Lantern film with Ryan "I broke up with Scarlett and thus am the stupidest man in the world" Reynolds?
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She has a tendency to gain weight and can be a PITA from what I hear.

Furthermore, RR can bang any chick in the world. Getting married was the "stupidest" thing he could have done.
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Well yeah, no doubt, Supes has always been a country boy with a love for Lois Lane and Batman is one of the most tortured comic-book heroes out there. But, and maybe I'm just ignorant on the subject, it seems like the majority of DC superheroes have no substance.
-The Green Lantern: A pilot who gets chosen to be an intergalactic policeman. BORING.
-The Martian Manhunter: A Martian with more power than Superman who's race got slaughtered. BORING.
-Wonder Woman: An Amazonian with unbelievable bodily dimension. Good fap material but.. BORING.
-Aquaman: The dude talks to fish. BORING.
-The Flash: He's really fast and cocky. BORING.

Obviously they all have SOMETHING to write about when they're not in tights, but who cares? I have a hard time feeling for those guys. But I can feel for Peter Parker's issues with being broke and not being able to be with Mary Jane. I can feel for Tony Stark being an alcoholic. I can feel for Bruce having to deal with the green monster every damn time he gets angry. Ok, I'm done with my rant now.
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a bitch, clingy,or low self esteem in the terms of needing incessant compliments to feel validated?
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I agree with this. Marvel, all around, has much better characters.

That being said, my favorite superheros are DC -- Superman and Batman. But as a universe, I'll take Marvel over DC every single time.
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I agree with this assessment. Which is why, from what I remember of the Wonder Woman TV series, given the time it was made (1975-1979), they did a decent job with it. She was worried about revealing her identity and the location of her island, she was worried about falling in love with the character of Lyle Waggoner... it was about as much character-development you could expect from a late 70's TV show whose main purpose was "show some tits". It would be interesting to see a modern director like Snyder or Nolan get their hands on Wonder Woman (no pun intended) and try to do something with the character.
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I'd also agree with this.
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because they Characters in the collective has Stan Lee as their creator while DC has different subsets of authors which really has a discontinuity about it in comparison.
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Interesting:
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I'm going to have to defend Green Lantern, the Flash and Aquaman. And DC in general.

The modern incarnation of Green Lantern, since Rebirth in 2005, is absolutely outstanding. It's a big space opera worthy of the original Star Wars, and a lot of it centers on Hal's relationship with Sinestro, his guilt about killing most of the Green Lantern corps when he was possessed by Parallax, and his struggles to earn back the trust of the re-formed Lantern Corps.

Now, with Green Lantern alone, you have a betrayal from a once-close friend, and a devastating mistake that forever changed the way people see you, and now you have to fight to redeem yourself. To me, those are stories you can really invest in. Green Lantern is also very easily the best-written DC title going these days; Blackest Night was a wildly popular and successful DC event which was primarily focused on the Lanterns. Brightest Day is less concentrated on Hal Jordan, but it focuses on the newly discovered/created White Lantern. The next DC event is going to be 'War of the Green Lanterns', which ostensibly means GL has been the foundation of every major DC series since Final Crisis. The reason for that is the writing; Geoff Johns is, for my money, far and away the best comic writer working today, and he's responsible for most of the Green Lantern stories and a new treatment on the Flash.

The Flash I'm most familiar with is Barry Allen, and he only recently returned from being dead for 20+ years; he's trying to find his place in the world, and while coming back from the dead on it's own is something nobody has any experience with, feeling out of place and wondering what you're supposed to do is an extremely accessible premise.

Aquaman aka Arthur Curry died, came back as a zombie, was saved from said fate, but now controls zombie sea creatures. That's just effing cool.

Wonder Woman? I'll admit, I'm not a fan. She's kinda like Superman with tits, but never really seems all that necessary to the plot of any given story. On the plus side, she has killed people, and is willing to do so again; in that respect, she's interesting. But I don't lose sleep when she's not in a story.

Honestly, if you have some negative preconceptions about DC but still know enough about the core characters (Superman, Batman, Flash, Green Lantern etc) to get by, I'd really suggest checking out Identity Crisis, Infinite Crisis and Blackest Night. Final Crisis is in there between Infinite and Blackest Night, but you can skip to the end; all you need to know is

SPOILERS



















Batman dies at the end of Final Crisis, and Martian Manhunter is killed about a third of the way in. And Barry Allen comes back from the dead/Speed Force.



And then you can skip to Blackest Night.

It's a bit of a chore I know, but trust me dude all those books are so well-written, so well-drawn, it's well worth your time to check them out.

If I could just add one more thing; I don't know why you don't include Superman among the 'boring' DC characters. He's written to be far too powerful, and though I love Superman 1 and 2, and can stand Returns, when you get right down to it, it's very difficult to make him an interesting character because he's too perfect. He's strong, he can fly, he has heat vision, super breath, x-ray vision, super hearing, he's indestructible etc. Where's the challenge? To me, anything that made Superman interesting was thrown out when they established Lois knew who he was. That's the biggest part of Superman's charm, for me, his balancing of personas.

There was a line on "Lois and Clark" way back in the day that went something like 'Lois, Superman is what I can do, but Clark Kent is who I am'. There's so much less drama involved when she knows who he is. And when you really can't have 'drama' when the hero is as invulnerable as Kal-El, it doesn't make things better to write out the one source of tension you DID have.

Now, all you can do is write about Superman's internal difficulties with personalities in the Justice League; understanding why they mind-wiped Batman, etc. Which is fine, don't get me wrong. But that lacks something, in my mind.

Anyway, I've nerded out enough for everyone, so I'll stop now.

Cheers.
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Viggo Morteson as Zod sounds perfect.
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Love it.
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Honestly, a Superman story I would LOVE to see made is, Superman: Red Son.

I realize that it will never happen, but if it did, that would be fucking bad ass.
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