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Nzoner's Game Room>Some people on this forum need to be nicer to Dave Toub
RealSNR 04:49 PM 10-20-2019
They seem to be under the impression that our special teams unit sucks or just hasn't been good enough for awhile now. A few of the dumber fans have even suggested that Toub needs to go. Bullshit. Complete and utter bullshit.

This is another example of people not seeing the forest for the fucking trees when it comes to this team during the Andy Reid era. They get so obsessed over the illegal block in the back penalties and how he coaches his returners to attempt to make a play whenever possible. Seriously? THOSE TWO things are your main criteria for determining whether we have a good special teams coordinator or not?!

Is there nothing to be said for him having 3 different place kickers since 2013, and how none of them have ever shit the bed and turned into Mason Crosbys, Blair Walshes, or Cody Parkeys?

Or how about the BIGGEST part of special teams: Returns. Did you know the Chiefs have never allowed a special teams return TD of ANY TYPE during Toub's tenure? Meanwhile, they themselves have scored 11 kickoff/punt return TDs? "Oh but it's all Tyreek," you might say. Nope. Tyreek only accounts for 5 of those 11 return TDs.

So here are some stats. You can look up any year you want at both of the links

https://www.espn.com/nfl/stats/team/...eturn/dir/desc

Here are the Chiefs in the return game

2013: 2 kr TDs (Quinton Demps, Knile Davis) 2 pr TDs (Dexter McCluster)
Rankings: 1st in kick return average, 6th in punt return average

2014: 1 kr TD (Knile Davis) 1 pr TD (DeAnthony Thomas)
Rankings: 2nd in kick return average, 4th in punt return average

2015: [none]
Rankings: 21st in kick return average, 18th in punt return average

2016: 1 kr TD (Tyreek Hill) 2 pr TD (Tyreek Hill)
Rankings: 9th in kick return average, 1st in punt return average

2017: 1 pr TD (Tyreek Hill)
Rankings: 9th in kick return average, 25th in punt return average

2018: 1 pr TD (Tyreek Hill)
Rankings: 8th in kick return average, 3rd in punt return average

Apart from 2015 and an anomalous 2017 in punt returns, the Chiefs have always been top 10 in average return yards per punt and kickoff.

I've been trying to find statistics for team kick and punt coverage and I can't quite find any. Here's this shit from Football Outsiders, though. No clue if this is a good metric to use or not, but here are their total special teams rankings:

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamst/2018

2013: 1st
2014: 3rd
2015: 9th
2016: 1st
2017: 4th
2018: 2nd

Anybody still want to claim that Toub sucks?
[Reply]
Hammock Parties 05:02 PM 10-20-2019
Lots of morons on here after that two-week hiccup.

Toub is the GOAT.
[Reply]
SupDock 05:20 PM 10-20-2019
The issue with our special teams is penalties and DAT
[Reply]
Hog's Gone Fishin 05:21 PM 10-20-2019
Toub spelled backwards (if you switch the ou, and replace te u with A) spells BOAT. I'll be on mine in 24 hours.
[Reply]
Jewish Rabbi 05:23 PM 10-20-2019
I mean to be fair on your not allowing returns point, how often do they punt with Mahomes? And we all know Alex Smith was elite at setting up the punter.
[Reply]
RealSNR 05:23 PM 10-20-2019
Originally Posted by SupDock:
The issue with our special teams is penalties and DAT
And again, I have this to say:


[Reply]
Megatron96 05:25 PM 10-20-2019
Originally Posted by RealSNR:
They seem to be under the impression that our special teams unit sucks or just hasn't been good enough for awhile now. A few of the dumber fans have even suggested that Toub needs to go. Bullshit. Complete and utter bullshit.

This is another example of people not seeing the forest for the ****ing trees when it comes to this team during the Andy Reid era. They get so obsessed over the illegal block in the back penalties and how he coaches his returners to attempt to make a play whenever possible. Seriously? THOSE TWO things are your main criteria for determining whether we have a good special teams coordinator or not?!

Is there nothing to be said for him having 3 different place kickers since 2013, and how none of them have ever shit the bed and turned into Mason Crosbys, Blair Walshes, or Cody Parkeys?

Or how about the BIGGEST part of special teams: Returns. Did you know the Chiefs have never allowed a special teams return TD of ANY TYPE during Toub's tenure? Meanwhile, they themselves have scored 11 kickoff/punt return TDs? "Oh but it's all Tyreek," you might say. Nope. Tyreek only accounts for 5 of those 11 return TDs.

So here are some stats. You can look up any year you want at both of the links

https://www.espn.com/nfl/stats/team/...eturn/dir/desc

Here are the Chiefs in the return game

2013: 2 kr TDs (Quinton Demps, Knile Davis) 2 pr TDs (Dexter McCluster)
Rankings: 1st in kick return average, 6th in punt return average

2014: 1 kr TD (Knile Davis) 1 pr TD (DeAnthony Thomas)
Rankings: 2nd in kick return average, 4th in punt return average

2015: [none]
Rankings: 21st in kick return average, 18th in punt return average

2016: 1 kr TD (Tyreek Hill) 2 pr TD (Tyreek Hill)
Rankings: 9th in kick return average, 1st in punt return average

2017: 1 pr TD (Tyreek Hill)
Rankings: 9th in kick return average, 25th in punt return average

2018: 1 pr TD (Tyreek Hill)
Rankings: 8th in kick return average, 3rd in punt return average

Apart from 2015 and an anomalous 2017 in punt returns, the Chiefs have always been top 10 in average return yards per punt and kickoff.

I've been trying to find statistics for team kick and punt coverage and I can't quite find any. Here's this shit from Football Outsiders, though. No clue if this is a good metric to use or not, but here are their total special teams rankings:

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamst/2018

2013: 1st
2014: 3rd
2015: 9th
2016: 1st
2017: 4th
2018: 2nd

Anybody still want to claim that Toub sucks?
You're first mistake is thinking that people care about facts and data.
[Reply]
KC Hawks 05:27 PM 10-20-2019
Do you think Terrance Copper would've been the greatest special teamer of all time under Toub?
[Reply]
rabblerouser 05:29 PM 10-20-2019
I'm nicer to him than Marcus Peters was...
[Reply]
RealSNR 05:37 PM 10-20-2019
Originally Posted by KC Hawks:
Do you think Terrance Copper would've been the greatest special teamer of all time under Toub?
He already was the greatest special teamer of all time without Dave Toub.

It's even more impressive that Dave Toub has coached our special teams to this incredible level in spite of having that kind of special teams leader ripped away from the squad in the preseason of his first year in KC!
[Reply]
TwistedChief 05:38 PM 10-20-2019
I have two major problems with Toub:

1. DAT's punt return decisions. This has been a notable problem for years and hasn't improved in the slightest. If DAT is the problem, he shouldn't be out there. If you're still putting him out there and he's making the same mistakes, you are the problem.
2. Special teams penalties have been consistently egregious. The players surely deserve a lot of blame, but eventually it has to come back to the coaching.

I'm not saying Toub should be fired and I recognize that he's well-respected and very good at what he does, but the issues raised above are driving me fucking insane.
[Reply]
wazu 05:39 PM 10-20-2019
Okay but he needs to stop having our guys run it out of the end zone.
[Reply]
SupDock 05:57 PM 10-20-2019
Originally Posted by RealSNR:
And again, I have this to say:

And yet, as evidenced by responses in this thread, people do care
[Reply]
RealSNR 06:03 PM 10-20-2019
Originally Posted by SupDock:
And yet, as evidenced by responses in this thread, people do care
They shouldn't.
[Reply]
srvy 06:04 PM 10-20-2019
I want so much success for Toub that he is promoted to head coach. He would look good in Miami with that tan and take Dat with him.
[Reply]
srvy 06:04 PM 10-20-2019
I want so much success for Toub that he is promoted to head coach. He would look good in Miami with that tan and take Dat with him.
[Reply]
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