They seem to be under the impression that our special teams unit sucks or just hasn't been good enough for awhile now. A few of the dumber fans have even suggested that Toub needs to go. Bullshit. Complete and utter bullshit.
This is another example of people not seeing the forest for the fucking trees when it comes to this team during the Andy Reid era. They get so obsessed over the illegal block in the back penalties and how he coaches his returners to attempt to make a play whenever possible. Seriously? THOSE TWO things are your main criteria for determining whether we have a good special teams coordinator or not?!
Is there nothing to be said for him having 3 different place kickers since 2013, and how none of them have ever shit the bed and turned into Mason Crosbys, Blair Walshes, or Cody Parkeys?
Or how about the BIGGEST part of special teams: Returns. Did you know the Chiefs have never allowed a special teams return TD of ANY TYPE during Toub's tenure? Meanwhile, they themselves have scored 11 kickoff/punt return TDs? "Oh but it's all Tyreek," you might say. Nope. Tyreek only accounts for 5 of those 11 return TDs.
So here are some stats. You can look up any year you want at both of the links
2013: 2 kr TDs (Quinton Demps, Knile Davis) 2 pr TDs (Dexter McCluster)
Rankings: 1st in kick return average, 6th in punt return average
2014: 1 kr TD (Knile Davis) 1 pr TD (DeAnthony Thomas)
Rankings: 2nd in kick return average, 4th in punt return average
2015: [none]
Rankings: 21st in kick return average, 18th in punt return average
2016: 1 kr TD (Tyreek Hill) 2 pr TD (Tyreek Hill)
Rankings: 9th in kick return average, 1st in punt return average
2017: 1 pr TD (Tyreek Hill)
Rankings: 9th in kick return average, 25th in punt return average
2018: 1 pr TD (Tyreek Hill)
Rankings: 8th in kick return average, 3rd in punt return average
Apart from 2015 and an anomalous 2017 in punt returns, the Chiefs have always been top 10 in average return yards per punt and kickoff.
I've been trying to find statistics for team kick and punt coverage and I can't quite find any. Here's this shit from Football Outsiders, though. No clue if this is a good metric to use or not, but here are their total special teams rankings:
Toub: Get it straight buster - I'm not here to say please, I'm here to tell you what to do and if self-preservation is an instinct you possess you'd better fucking do it and do it quick. I'm here to help - if my help's not appreciated then lotsa luck, gentlemen.
Dat: No, Mr. Toub, it ain't like that, your help is definitely appreciated.
Toub: If I'm curt with you it's because time is a factor. I think fast, I talk fast and I need you guys to act fast if you wanna get out of this. So, pretty please... with sugar on top. Don’t field a fucking punt inside the fucking 10.. [Reply]
Originally Posted by SupDock:
That's quite the hot take.
don't worry about penalties or poor return decisions on special teams?
Completely disagree. Feel free to link that gif you love so much
Everything Toub's special teams units do well is 95% of what I care about.
Are there too many penalties? Sure. I hope he fixes that. Do our returners get overconfident in their return ability, especially on kickoffs? Yeah. Are those areas for self-improvement for Toub? Totally.
But should we consider replacing Toub if those are things that don't get fixed?
Absolutely not. You find me the special teams coordinator who will replace him who will get just as much out of our coverage and return teams AND will also fix all the penalties and silly returner mistakes, and I'll be on board.
I don't think you're gonna find that guy. I don't think even Reid is going to find that guy. And even if you THINK you found that guy (like when Denver hired Brock Olivo away from us) he might turn out to be a total fucktard. That's not worth the risk.
So in short... we're doing pretty well with Toub. He has a flaw or two as a coach. Are those flaws reasonable tradeoffs? Totally. And if you say no... well, I'll be nice and say I strongly disagree with you and maybe you should reevaluate what's really important to having a good special teams unit. [Reply]
Somewhat unrelated to the topic, but I think the Denver game showed that we should take a touchback on every kickoff. I was so thankful to see the ball sail beyond the endzone in that thin air. Keep DAT's ass from doing stupid shit. [Reply]
Originally Posted by RealSNR:
Everything Toub's special teams units do well is 95% of what I care about.
Are there too many penalties? Sure. I hope he fixes that. Do our returners get overconfident in their return ability, especially on kickoffs? Yeah. Are those areas for self-improvement for Toub? Totally.
But should we consider replacing Toub if those are things that don't get fixed?
Absolutely not. You find me the special teams coordinator who will replace him who will get just as much out of our coverage and return teams AND will also fix all the penalties and silly returner mistakes, and I'll be on board.
I don't think you're gonna find that guy. I don't think even Reid is going to find that guy. And even if you THINK you found that guy (like when Denver hired Brock Olivo away from us) he might turn out to be a total fucktard. That's not worth the risk.
So in short... we're doing pretty well with Toub. He has a flaw or two as a coach. Are those flaws reasonable tradeoffs? Totally. And if you say no... well, I'll be nice and say I strongly disagree with you and maybe you should reevaluate what's really important to having a good special teams unit.
Dude, you shouldn't care about the penalties on special teams, remember?
I have never advocated for firing Toub, all I did was comment about my distaste for the penalties and DATs questionable decision making [Reply]
Originally Posted by bowener:
Somewhat unrelated to the topic, but I think the Denver game showed that we should take a touchback on every kickoff. I was so thankful to see the ball sail beyond the endzone in that thin air. Keep DAT's ass from doing stupid shit.
Since the coming of Mahomes, the need to get improved field position from our STs hasn't been as important. To a healthy Mahomes and crew, starting from the 25 is just fine. 75 yards isn't a big deal to Pat. Hell, he can throw it into the endzone from there.
All we need from our return units is to not be stupid. Don't get tackled/fair catch the ball inside the 10. Everything better than that is just icing. And DAT or whoever trying to do too much on a return probably can account for almost half of Chiefs turnovers in the playoffs. Just fair catch the ball or let it bounce into the EZ. Mahomes will take care of the rest.
As for Toub, I just have one thing to say: you never waste 'good.' Toub is really good; it's stupid to try and replace him thinking you might find better than a guy who's made our STs a top-10 unit for about 6 years now. If it ain't broke . . . [Reply]
Originally Posted by SupDock:
Dude, you shouldn't care about the penalties on special teams, remember?
I have never advocated for firing Toub, all I did was comment about my distaste for the penalties and DATs questionable decision making
I'm saying people flip the fuck out over stupid shit. Special teams penalties are one of those things. And even DAT.
Yes, DAT. People are going to claim I'm defending him, and I'm not, but good God, people. You all fucking LOATHE that guy. He's not even THAT bad. We can do better, but people talk about him around here like he's the unholy spawn from the seeds of Cassel and Pioli. He's not Dante Hall. Or Tyreek. Hell, he's not even Tamarick Vanover. What are you going to fucking do? Don't you think if we had somebody on this roster better than him that he would have been replaced already?
People are losing their goddamn MINDS over the silliest fucking shit about this team.
You know what you should lose your goddamn mind over? How we haven't earnestly invested in protection for the fucking MVP of the goddamn NFL. Or how about our defense? Hell, the parking and the ticket prices fucking suck dick and the Arrowhead mystique isn't what it once was since they chased away all the poor people who used to go to the games and made a fuck ton of noise.
Special teams penalties? Our kick returner? You're gonna sacrifice a consistently top 5 overall special teams unit in all areas because the penalties annoy you?