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Saccopoo Memorial Draft Forum>Early 2021 Mock (3 rounds)
kccrow 02:03 PM 12-13-2020
Originally Posted by Oxford:
This draft seems weighted towards rounds 2-4 for the Chiefs needs, so i smell a Veach trade back, how many spots do we trade back to get an extra 3 or 4? That always seems to Veach's happy talent hunting ground
We should get a 3rd round comp. Depends on what's there in a trade back. I'm all about adding another TE in this draft that's more competent than what we have now. I just don't think it's as important with a 1st or 2nd rounder as some other positions. Those are players you expect to start early on in their careers and make an impact on improving the roster and filling voids. I think there's bigger fish to fry than a #2 TE. Chiefs need a #2 WR more than a #2 TE. They need a LDE. They need better LBs. With the frequency that they play 3 safeties I'd give some consideration to that position, especially if they don't extend Mathieu. I think you have to look at the O-line. So, definitely not a priority item.
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gonefishin53 03:28 PM 12-12-2020
Andy plays 2 TE 1/3 of the time with Keiser or Yelden as the #2. He would likely play 2 TE more if the #2 TE were a competent receiving threat just to get a heavier box to pass against, imo. Brevin Jordan, Miami, is listed as a TE but, at 6'3'' and 245 lbs, lines up at WR or slot most of the time due to his athletic ability. I think Andy's 2 TE offense would be very dynamic and productive with Kelce and Jordan as the 2 TEs.
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kccrow 11:23 PM 12-12-2020
Originally Posted by gonefishin53:
Andy plays 2 TE 1/3 of the time with Keiser or Yelden as the #2. He would likely play 2 TE more if the #2 TE were a competent receiving threat just to get a heavier box to pass against, imo. Brevin Jordan, Miami, is listed as a TE but, at 6'3'' and 245 lbs, lines up at WR or slot most of the time due to his athletic ability. I think Andy's 2 TE offense would be very dynamic and productive with Kelce and Jordan as the 2 TEs.
I dug into that "1/3" stat a bit after Duncan mentioned it.

In 2018 and 2019, Reid used it 28% of the time overall.

In 2020 he's used it 20% of the time overall. He's used it 23% of 1st downs, 21% of 2nd downs, 10% of 3rd downs, and 0% on 4th down - where he tends to go to a 2 RB set instead.

While down does seem to matter, distance to go and quarter of the game don't move much. He is nearly perfectly consistent on distance to the first, and by quarter is 20%, 20%, 24%, and 16% respectively.

So, all that said, he's using a 2 TE set closer to 1/4 to 1/5 of the time and not 1/3 and primarily on 1st and 2nd down, which seem to go against what you'd expect. Either way, I'm not putting a 1st round pick into a player that plays 1/4 of the time. No way. I can't see Veach doing it either.
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duncan_idaho 08:07 AM 12-13-2020
Originally Posted by kccrow:
I dug into that "1/3" stat a bit after Duncan mentioned it.

In 2018 and 2019, Reid used it 28% of the time overall.

In 2020 he's used it 20% of the time overall. He's used it 23% of 1st downs, 21% of 2nd downs, 10% of 3rd downs, and 0% on 4th down - where he tends to go to a 2 RB set instead.

While down does seem to matter, distance to go and quarter of the game don't move much. He is nearly perfectly consistent on distance to the first, and by quarter is 20%, 20%, 24%, and 16% respectively.

So, all that said, he's using a 2 TE set closer to 1/4 to 1/5 of the time and not 1/3 and primarily on 1st and 2nd down, which seem to go against what you'd expect. Either way, I'm not putting a 1st round pick into a player that plays 1/4 of the time. No way. I can't see Veach doing it either.

We’re you looking at 12, 13, and 22 groupings?

I assume you used Sharps, as that’s about the only place that has data on this that’s free.

I don’t know if I mentioned it in the post where I quoted the rate, but I should have.

Those multiple TE sets have consistently accounted for right around 1/3 of the snaps.

That’s where my math came from. Sorry if I didn’t completely show my work. I think I was posting while singing to my kid at bedtime. Ha.

Multitask Dad.
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kccrow 01:52 PM 12-13-2020
Originally Posted by duncan_idaho:
We’re you looking at 12, 13, and 22 groupings?

I assume you used Sharps, as that’s about the only place that has data on this that’s free.

I don’t know if I mentioned it in the post where I quoted the rate, but I should have.

Those multiple TE sets have consistently accounted for right around 1/3 of the snaps.

That’s where my math came from. Sorry if I didn’t completely show my work. I think I was posting while singing to my kid at bedtime. Ha.

Multitask Dad.
I probably forgot to include anything but 12 personnel thinking about it now. So, that ups it to 26% this year with down splits of 29, 25, 15, and 0% respectively. Even if I'm looking at that, I can't substantiate a 1st round pick for a player that sees the field less than or equal to 1/3 of the time. Comparatively, a 3rd WR sees the field twice as often (72% in 2020, 61 and 62% in '19 and '18).

I feel you on the multi-task dad bit haha. Been there, doing that. :-) Work, kids, sleep a little, repeat.
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O.city 08:09 AM 12-13-2020
If they had better tight ends they’d use it more

I’m no for using a first on a tight end but if there was a guy there who you think ends up being really good, go for it. Kelce is basically a wr anyway
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Tribal Warfare 01:37 AM 12-15-2020
Even with CEH I wonder if KC's planning to draft a bruiser RB like Javonte Williams or Najee Harris if they're available in the 1st -3rd rounds
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Chargem 06:29 AM 12-15-2020
Originally Posted by Tribal Warfare:
Even with CEH I wonder if KC's planning to draft a bruiser RB like Javonte Williams or Najee Harris if they're available in the 1st -3rd rounds
Another first round running back would literally be terrible.

If Damien is back next year, I don't think a running back is needed at all. If he's not, I'd be all for taking one in the later rounds, probably not even round 3 though.
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Tribal Warfare 09:43 AM 12-15-2020
Originally Posted by Chargem:
Another first round running back would literally be terrible.

If Damien is back next year, I don't think a running back is needed at all. If he's not, I'd be all for taking one in the later rounds, probably not even round 3 though.
If the value is there go for it, the Chiefs needs are different than most teams BECAUSE MAHOMES
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DaneMcCloud 04:06 PM 12-15-2020
Originally Posted by Chargem:
Another first round running back would literally be terrible.

If Damien is back next year, I don't think a running back is needed at all. If he's not, I'd be all for taking one in the later rounds, probably not even round 3 though.
:-)

Damien Williams has never been healthy enough to play in 16 games in a season, let alone, 19 or 20. He'll be 29 years old when the season starts and he'll have been out of football for the better part of two years.

The Chiefs need to draft BPA and if that's a guy like Harris, so be it. He would improve their Red Zone efficiency big time.
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OKchiefs 04:23 PM 12-15-2020
Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud:
:-)

Damien Williams has never been healthy enough to play in 16 games in a season, let alone, 19 or 20. He'll be 29 years old when the season starts and he'll have been out of football for the better part of two years.

The Chiefs need to draft BPA and if that's a guy like Harris, so be it. He would improve their Red Zone efficiency big time.
Any running back short of Barry Sanders would struggle to find paydirt if they got hit in the backfield constantly. CEH will be fine if the OL is improved.

Also, Williams’ health isn’t as big of an issue as the #2 back getting 5-10 touches a game.

It’s not even an argument worth discussing, KC isn’t taking another RB in the first.
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Chargem 04:27 PM 12-15-2020
Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud:
:-)

Damien Williams has never been healthy enough to play in 16 games in a season, let alone, 19 or 20. He'll be 29 years old when the season starts and he'll have been out of football for the better part of two years.

The Chiefs need to draft BPA and if that's a guy like Harris, so be it. He would improve their Red Zone efficiency big time.
You only need Williams to play 10-12 snaps a game like Bell is doing now, he has way more chance of staying healthy under that work load.

Two things:

The Chiefs don't have red zone issues, you're falling victim to recency bias when they had 2 games back to back with poor redzone luck. Overall their TD efficiency in the red zone is the same as last year (57% vs 60%)

Drafting two first round running backs when you run the ball 24 times a game is a waste.
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DaneMcCloud 12:42 AM 12-17-2020
Originally Posted by Chargem:
Two things:

The Chiefs don't have red zone issues, you're falling victim to recency bias when they had 2 games back to back with poor redzone luck. Overall their TD efficiency in the red zone is the same as last year (57% vs 60%)

Drafting two first round running backs when you run the ball 24 times a game is a waste.
Both are true.

But, and of course it’s long shot, it would give the Chiefs an amazing opportunity to just crush their opponents. If they added a Derrick Henry style back, which is what Harris is, their Run-to-Pass ratio would be closer to 50/50 than 70/30 and the entire offense would just explode.
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DaneMcCloud 04:04 PM 12-15-2020
Originally Posted by Tribal Warfare:
Even with CEH I wonder if KC's planning to draft a bruiser RB like Javonte Williams or Najee Harris if they're available in the 1st -3rd rounds
Najee Harris and CEH would be the best running back room in the NFL, bar none.

I have no doubt that he would solve the Chiefs Red Zone issues.
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Tribal Warfare 06:50 PM 12-20-2020
Originally Posted by Tribal Warfare:
Even with CEH I wonder if KC's planning to draft a bruiser RB like Javonte Williams or Najee Harris if they're available in the 1st -3rd rounds
Yep we're looking at Lavonte and Najee Harris due to CEH's injury
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