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Nzoner's Game Room>Why is Robinson playing more than Hardman?
RunKC 05:12 PM 09-11-2020
Someone help me out here. Robinson has hands of stone. He dropped 3 passes by my count last night, including one that hit him right in the face mask.

Robinson played 33 snaps while Hardman played 20.

Just doesn’t make sense to me. Hardman is so much better
[Reply]
OKchiefs 10:17 PM 09-13-2020
Originally Posted by O.city:
There’s a chance Hardman never becomes more than a 2 or 3 route gadget type player and that’s ok.

With his speed, he can be a real weapon and good player being that. Look at desean Jackson.
It's not okay when you took that player in the 2nd round over a much more highly touted player like DK Metcalf. Metcalf is a likely 1,000 yard receiver and possible pro bowler this year. I'll be impressed if Hardman even equals his rookie stats.
[Reply]
htismaqe 10:24 PM 09-13-2020
DK Metcalf is what he is because the Seahawks have very little talent at WR. DK Metcalf wouldn't be what his is now in KC.

The whole "we passed on" complaint is just dumb.
[Reply]
O.city 08:44 AM 09-14-2020
Originally Posted by OKchiefs:
It's not okay when you took that player in the 2nd round over a much more highly touted player like DK Metcalf. Metcalf is a likely 1,000 yard receiver and possible pro bowler this year. I'll be impressed if Hardman even equals his rookie stats.
If you're holding out hope that a 2nd round WR, becomes a well rounded ass kicker this soon, or even at all, well.... thats probably not ideal.

Hardman was taken because of his upside in this offense and at a time when Tyreek was in limbo. It is what it is.

But if he becomes DeSean Jackson 2.0 and all he can run is posts, goes, crossers etc, he could very easily be a 1000 yard guy. He's probably not ever gonna be a full route tree guy, but thats ok.
[Reply]
keg in kc 10:11 AM 09-14-2020
"Highly touted" doesn't mean shit. Hardman was higher on their draft board, and that's what they go by. What random "draft experts" on the interwebs think about draft prospects matters about as much as what I do. The team spends literally millions prepping for the draft. They don't just read McShay columns.

I would assume Robinson got more snaps because he's a better blocker, and we seemed to have a focus on quick passes and the running game. The approach next week may mean a different emphasis as far as personnel and packages.
[Reply]
Megatron96 11:34 AM 09-14-2020
Here are the facts: Mecole is a second-year WR, a WR4, who came to the team having only played a couple seasons as a WR in college. In other words, he's still pretty raw in terms of experience. And in spite of the fact that we've all seen the clips of him working on his craft this preseason, he hasn't had the coaching he might've had if this had been a normal preseason with OTAs, a real mini-camp, preseason games, etc. So his learning curve has taken a little bump for 2020.

And let's not forget that even Tyreek had his issues with beating man press coverage early in his career. In fact, if you go back and look at his performances from his second year vs. his third, you can see the development he made specifically against man press coverages. Mecole still has to make that leap.

But I've said this before for not only Mecole but several other players: it takes time for any player to fully grasp Andy Reid's playbook. Let's not forget that Andy's receivers have to learn not only their route-trees, but the route trees for every receiver in the play, in every play in the book. About two to three full seasons seems to be about average, and Mecole is only starting his second season as a Chief.

Now, on Thursday HOU played a lot of man press and focused on containing Hardman, something that a novice receiver is just going to have trouble with, the fact that Mecole doesn't have the total experience necessary to make adjustments on his own, and that he's just not a great route-runner yet, and it's not as surprising that he only saw one target.

Mecole was on the field for 19 snaps out of the Chiefs 67 offensive snaps for the game. That's about what I predicted he'd see on average for the season per game, which is up about 5-6 snaps over his average from last season.

Which is actually more than one might expect on Thursday, considering that the Chiefs only had 9 possessions throughout the game. That was a product of the fact that both teams tried to milk the clock during their respective possessions resulting in about 2-3 fewer possessions by each team, judging from their averages last season.

So by the numbers it really looks like Andy tried to get Mecole on the field, to get him as many snaps as he could.

D. Robinson, on the other hand, is a veteran NFL receiver, who's been in Andy's system for a while now, and knows the playbook about as well as anyone's going to know it at this point. And what I mean is that Robinson knows the route trees for every receiver on every play in the book, which Hardman probably hasn't committed to muscle memory yet. Plus, Robinson is just a better route-runner than Mecole at this point, the benefit of having a lot more experience at the position both in college and the NFL. Another advantage that DRob has over Mecole at this point is chemistry with his QB. DRob has been playing/practicing with Mahomes for several years, where Mecole has had just the one full season. So DRob has a much more intuitive feel for what to do when things go sideways and he has to improvise. Mecole just doesn't have that experience yet. And finally Robinson simply a better blocker.

All of that said, I still think Hardman is going to have a big year, that we can't judge anything from a single game, and that he's going to be a major contributor for the team for years to come.

But we're just going to have to be patient this year.
[Reply]
htismaqe 11:46 AM 09-14-2020
Originally Posted by Megatron96:
Here are the facts: Mecole is a second-year WR, a WR4, who came to the team having only played a couple seasons as a WR in college. In other words, he's still pretty raw in terms of experience. And in spite of the fact that we've all seen the clips of him working on his craft this preseason, he hasn't had the coaching he might've had if this had been a normal preseason with OTAs, a real mini-camp, preseason games, etc. So his learning curve has taken a little bump for 2020.

And let's not forget that even Tyreek had his issues with beating man press coverage early in his career. In fact, if you go back and look at his performances from his second year vs. his third, you can see the development he made specifically against man press coverages. Mecole still has to make that leap.

But I've said this before for not only Mecole but several other players: it takes time for any player to fully grasp Andy Reid's playbook. Let's not forget that Andy's receivers have to learn not only their route-trees, but the route trees for every receiver in the play, in every play in the book. About two to three full seasons seems to be about average, and Mecole is only starting his second season as a Chief.

Now, on Thursday HOU played a lot of man press and focused on containing Hardman, something that a novice receiver is just going to have trouble with, the fact that Mecole doesn't have the total experience necessary to make adjustments on his own, and that he's just not a great route-runner yet, and it's not as surprising that he only saw one target.

Mecole was on the field for 19 snaps out of the Chiefs 67 offensive snaps for the game. That's about what I predicted he'd see on average for the season per game, which is up about 5-6 snaps over his average from last season.

Which is actually more than one might expect on Thursday, considering that the Chiefs only had 9 possessions throughout the game. That was a product of the fact that both teams tried to milk the clock during their respective possessions resulting in about 2-3 fewer possessions by each team, judging from their averages last season.

So by the numbers it really looks like Andy tried to get Mecole on the field, to get him as many snaps as he could.

D. Robinson, on the other hand, is a veteran NFL receiver, who's been in Andy's system for a while now, and knows the playbook about as well as anyone's going to know it at this point. And what I mean is that Robinson knows the route trees for every receiver on every play in the book, which Hardman probably hasn't committed to muscle memory yet. Plus, Robinson is just a better route-runner than Mecole at this point, the benefit of having a lot more experience at the position both in college and the NFL. Another advantage that DRob has over Meocle at this point is chemistry with his QB. DRob has been playing/practicing with Mahomes for several years, where Mecole has had just the one full season. So DRob has a much more intuitive feel for what to do when things go sideways and he has to improvise. Mecole just doesn't have that experience yet. And he's simply a better blocker.

All of that said, I still think Hardman is going to have a big year, that we can't judge anything from a single game, and that he's going to be a major contributor for the team for years to come.

But we're just going to have to be patient this year.
You're right. One game does not a season make. If that's the case, Sammy Watkins is gonna win MVP and Tyreek Hill should be benched. :-)
[Reply]
tatorhog 12:17 PM 09-14-2020
Eh, if the team was getting killed regardless of what they did, and yet they still refused to put Hardman out there, then that would be a time to question him.

This scenario? Meh, the game was effectively over early on. There was no need to do everything. Let the rookie run the ball and get a better feel for life in the NFL.
[Reply]
Kiimo 12:20 PM 09-14-2020
The rain certainly was a factor as well as I'm sure somebody already mentioned
[Reply]
OKchiefs 12:47 PM 09-14-2020
Originally Posted by Megatron96:
Here are the facts: Mecole is a second-year WR, a WR4, who came to the team having only played a couple seasons as a WR in college. In other words, he's still pretty raw in terms of experience. And in spite of the fact that we've all seen the clips of him working on his craft this preseason, he hasn't had the coaching he might've had if this had been a normal preseason with OTAs, a real mini-camp, preseason games, etc. So his learning curve has taken a little bump for 2020.

And let's not forget that even Tyreek had his issues with beating man press coverage early in his career. In fact, if you go back and look at his performances from his second year vs. his third, you can see the development he made specifically against man press coverages. Mecole still has to make that leap.

But I've said this before for not only Mecole but several other players: it takes time for any player to fully grasp Andy Reid's playbook. Let's not forget that Andy's receivers have to learn not only their route-trees, but the route trees for every receiver in the play, in every play in the book. About two to three full seasons seems to be about average, and Mecole is only starting his second season as a Chief.

Now, on Thursday HOU played a lot of man press and focused on containing Hardman, something that a novice receiver is just going to have trouble with, the fact that Mecole doesn't have the total experience necessary to make adjustments on his own, and that he's just not a great route-runner yet, and it's not as surprising that he only saw one target.

Mecole was on the field for 19 snaps out of the Chiefs 67 offensive snaps for the game. That's about what I predicted he'd see on average for the season per game, which is up about 5-6 snaps over his average from last season.

Which is actually more than one might expect on Thursday, considering that the Chiefs only had 9 possessions throughout the game. That was a product of the fact that both teams tried to milk the clock during their respective possessions resulting in about 2-3 fewer possessions by each team, judging from their averages last season.

So by the numbers it really looks like Andy tried to get Mecole on the field, to get him as many snaps as he could.

D. Robinson, on the other hand, is a veteran NFL receiver, who's been in Andy's system for a while now, and knows the playbook about as well as anyone's going to know it at this point. And what I mean is that Robinson knows the route trees for every receiver on every play in the book, which Hardman probably hasn't committed to muscle memory yet. Plus, Robinson is just a better route-runner than Mecole at this point, the benefit of having a lot more experience at the position both in college and the NFL. Another advantage that DRob has over Mecole at this point is chemistry with his QB. DRob has been playing/practicing with Mahomes for several years, where Mecole has had just the one full season. So DRob has a much more intuitive feel for what to do when things go sideways and he has to improvise. Mecole just doesn't have that experience yet. And finally Robinson simply a better blocker.

All of that said, I still think Hardman is going to have a big year, that we can't judge anything from a single game, and that he's going to be a major contributor for the team for years to come.

But we're just going to have to be patient this year.
I hope you're right. My main concern is that we seem to have way too many 2nd round picks who come in extremely raw and end up taking sometimes taking 2-3 years to realize their potential. K-pass seems to finally have shown something in year 3, and now in year 4 is starting. I'm hoping Mecole Hardman is on a quicker learning curve than that. It's looking like Gay is going to take a while to get up to speed. Juan Thornhill is the obvious outlier, he's been a baller from just about the very beginning. Maybe I'm off on this, but I just feel like 2nd round picks should be able to take a starting spot sooner than later.
[Reply]
htismaqe 01:02 PM 09-14-2020
Originally Posted by OKchiefs:
I hope you're right. My main concern is that we seem to have way too many 2nd round picks who come in extremely raw and end up taking sometimes taking 2-3 years to realize their potential. K-pass seems to finally have shown something in year 3, and now in year 4 is starting. I'm hoping Mecole Hardman is on a quicker learning curve than that. It's looking like Gay is going to take a while to get up to speed. Juan Thornhill is the obvious outlier, he's been a baller from just about the very beginning. Maybe I'm off on this, but I just feel like 2nd round picks should be able to take a starting spot sooner than later.
Chris Jones was a 2nd-rounder. :-)
[Reply]
tatorhog 01:02 PM 09-14-2020
Originally Posted by OKchiefs:
I hope you're right. My main concern is that we seem to have way too many 2nd round picks who come in extremely raw and end up taking sometimes taking 2-3 years to realize their potential. K-pass seems to finally have shown something in year 3, and now in year 4 is starting. I'm hoping Mecole Hardman is on a quicker learning curve than that. It's looking like Gay is going to take a while to get up to speed. Juan Thornhill is the obvious outlier, he's been a baller from just about the very beginning. Maybe I'm off on this, but I just feel like 2nd round picks should be able to take a starting spot sooner than later.
I wouldn't sweat it. We're defending champs. We damn near kept our starting squads together (unlike many other teams after winning it all). We added a serious threat on offense. And we're taking coachable athletes in those 2nd/3rd round slots. Hell, I'm old enough to remember taking a 3rd rounder not so long ago that got cut before the season even started.

Guys like KPass might take a little more time, but the upside is worth the time investment.

We basically just won a game in the first half against a playoff team from last year (with a vanilla game plan), the arrows are pointed up.
[Reply]
RunKC 01:09 PM 09-14-2020
At this point I don’t mind if a player drafted early doesn’t start if they are actually producing for us. Danna and Wharton aren’t starters but they are certainly getting on the field and flashing.

It also doesn’t matter what position it is. If Andy wants to take an IOL with a late first rounder, fine with me. As long as that fucker is doing well on a cost effective deal.

We just need to avoid Breeland Speaks mistakes. That’s when you start getting in trouble.
[Reply]
DJ's left nut 01:32 PM 09-14-2020
Originally Posted by htismaqe:
DK Metcalf is what he is because the Seahawks have very little talent at WR. DK Metcalf wouldn't be what his is now in KC.

The whole "we passed on" complaint is just dumb.
Missing on McLauren will sting - he's just a letter perfect X in this system.

Would've made Watkins unnecessary and an easy replacement for him in the long-haul.

But Hardman can/will be a weapon in his own right. Will he ever ascend to the X role? Remains to be seen - not sure he'll ever be a precise enough route runner for that job, but there's time yet.

We're only 3 or 4 years removed from the 'you don't know what you have in a WR until year 3' era. It was just commonly accepted that guys take some time to develop at that position.

Recently that hasn't been the case, but it's still a reasonable timeline. If Hardman's capable of taking another step forward in year 3, that'll be just fine. If he's never anything more than he was last year, that's STILL better than what many/most teams will get out of their 2nd rounder.

The only real negative you can hang on him is that he's not McLauren but that's just not a fair game to play.
[Reply]
Megatron96 01:33 PM 09-14-2020
Originally Posted by OKchiefs:
I hope you're right. My main concern is that we seem to have way too many 2nd round picks who come in extremely raw and end up taking sometimes taking 2-3 years to realize their potential. K-pass seems to finally have shown something in year 3, and now in year 4 is starting. I'm hoping Mecole Hardman is on a quicker learning curve than that. It's looking like Gay is going to take a while to get up to speed. Juan Thornhill is the obvious outlier, he's been a baller from just about the very beginning. Maybe I'm off on this, but I just feel like 2nd round picks should be able to take a starting spot sooner than later.
Offense, especially Andy's version of it, is always going to be harder to become proficient in than defense. Defense is a lot more about reading and reacting; offense is more about memorization and less about instincts.

And Mecole night never 'blossom' into the Tyreek-type of player we all want him to be. But in this system, with Andy as his coach and Hill as his mentor, IMO he has the absolute best opportunity to reach his potential.

And I think Hardman is progressing. His footwork off the line looked a little better to me than it did last season. He's taking less false steps. That should translate into faster get-off at the snap. But right now everything for him is about having to think about what he has to do, with the route, his footwork, his hand-fighting, and so on. That mental processing is slowing him down. It has to become reflex for him to truly exploit his speed and quickness. And that's just going to take some time. And several hundred game snaps.

That's where the loss of those preseason games is really hurting his progress. But I think by week 5-6 we'll start noticing his improvement, because I really think he's been working his ass off trying to get better.
[Reply]
VAChief 01:53 PM 09-14-2020
Originally Posted by JakeF:
By all means keep defending Robinson like people have for 5 years. People are so certain that Robinson is hiding all this talent yet he's had endless chances to take over a big role and never has. More than any other backup we have.

Last year he had 1 good game and fans exploded telling everyone "see, see he's great". Then he disappeared and did jack for the rest of the year. He plays all the time because he can block but never much.

78 rec/ 1000 yrds total in 5 years.

I don't get how people can be so positive that he is just waiting to explode with talent on the field.

I'm not trying to start shit, i just don't get it.
First game dude. Last year, Hill, Hardman, Robinson all combined had 3 catches opening day (which matched Kelce). Damien Williams had 6.

Andy knows what he is doing.
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