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Saccopoo Memorial Draft Forum>It makes no sense to do anything but pay Dee Ford long term.
Direckshun 08:53 AM 11-14-2018
I don't know if I'd lock him into a Justin Houston 6 year contract, but I'd lock him into a 4 year contract where he's consistently highly paid and gives the Chiefs an "painful" out in 2 years and an easy out in 3.

I know we are reticent to give big money away again, since the last two defensive contracts have gone to defenders who can't stay healthy or whatever it is Berry is doing these days.

But there are very few ways to play effective defense in today's NFL, and they all involve passrushing. I think we should pay Ford to stay.

The concerns that he might "quit" are real, so I trust the Chiefs on this who are around him every day. But this is a guy that had to learn to play football and is as physically gifted as they come. He's strengthened up against the run -- a far cry from the days where he ran away from ball carriers -- and is probably our second-best OLB in coverage, behind Houston.

He's not the leader Hali was, and he's not as intelligent a player as Houston is, but he's possibly the most physically gifted of the three and has a great attitude -- he has never sulked or even faced the slightest suggestion that he's anything other than a good locker room presence. And this coaching staff deserves better than to pour 5 years into his development only to let him walk. We did that with Rodney Hudson and it's just the worst.

Franchising him is not the worst thing in the world. But you cannot let him walk.

Sign Ford long term.
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O.city 08:58 AM 11-14-2018
Thing is, going forward with Pat we're gonna score a lot of points. Teams are going to have to throw it a lot against us so you need pass rushers.

I'd probably sign him.
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SAUTO 09:10 AM 11-14-2018
definitely cant let the guy walk
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kccrow 04:02 AM 11-15-2018
I do have mixed feelings about whether or not he's a guy you can rely upon to stay healthy and be consistent in terms of inking him to a long-term deal. He has grown considerably, even if he's an incredibly late bloomer. The thing about Ford is he's the type of edge defender the NFL needs these days if they want to get pressure off the edge because QBs get the ball out far too quickly for most guys to get there.

I remain of the belief that we're going to see much more emphasis on the Aaron Donald types in the NFL in the future. Donald obviously isn't the first of his kind and he has significant work yet to do to be held in the same conversation as John Randle, but he's the type of interior pass rusher that can get to the QB far quicker than an edge player can. If I were going to focus efforts and resources on a position, I'd make it my defensive line and re-signing Chris Jones is going to be extremely important.

In any event, there is one thing I agree on and that is not letting him walk. Certainly, the Chiefs WILL NOT let him walk. He's either a tag and trade or a re-signing. I wouldn't squabble over either decision.
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Hoover 11:36 AM 11-15-2018
You tag him. Keep him for another year.

That allows you a couple of things

1. Helps us deal with Houston's monster contract. I think you keep both Houston and Ford for 2019, then you can save 17.5 Million on the cap by cutting Houston after 2019.

2. If Ford delivers in 2019 then we have a difficult decision to make. Personally, I think we draft OLBs and don't hand out massive contracts like this to defensive players because the modern NFL doesn't reward defensive play.
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O.city 11:40 AM 11-15-2018
Originally Posted by Hoover:
You tag him. Keep him for another year.

That allows you a couple of things

1. Helps us deal with Houston's monster contract. I think you keep both Houston and Ford for 2019, then you can save 17.5 Million on the cap by cutting Houston after 2019.

2. If Ford delivers in 2019 then we have a difficult decision to make. Personally, I think we draft OLBs and don't hand out massive contracts like this to defensive players because the modern NFL doesn't reward defensive play.
I actually think Ford is the type of player you'd hand a deal out to. He relies on speed. That's what NFL defenses these days are all about.

Whether his body can hold up, I dunno.
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Hoover 11:45 AM 11-15-2018
Originally Posted by O.city:
I actually think Ford is the type of player you'd hand a deal out to. He relies on speed. That's what NFL defenses these days are all about.

Whether his body can hold up, I dunno.
Agree with that. I think its probably too radical for a team to say it would never hand out a big time second contract to a player, but damn we have been burned by the Berry and Houston contracts. I'm cautious regarding Ford, but I really like what I see from him. And I don't think he's an injury prone guy like some here do.

I just don't see how we get out of the Berry contract. There is just too many years and dollars left on it. At least with Houston you can see the light at the end of the tunnel.
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kccrow 12:22 PM 11-15-2018
Originally Posted by Hoover:
Agree with that. I think its probably too radical for a team to say it would never hand out a big time second contract to a player, but damn we have been burned by the Berry and Houston contracts. I'm cautious regarding Ford, but I really like what I see from him. And I don't think he's an injury prone guy like some here do.

I just don't see how we get out of the Berry contract. There is just too many years and dollars left on it. At least with Houston you can see the light at the end of the tunnel.
It seems that way, but it's not the worst.

He has 12 million in prorated bonus remaining (4 per in 2019-2021) and guaranteed salary of 2.95 million in 2019. That's 14.95 million. If you cut him, you save 1.55 million on the cap in 2019 since his total cap is 16.5 and you'd then have 13.5 million free in 2020. If you June 1 designate him, then you have 8.95 million due against 2019 (half of the 12 + 2.95) and 6 due in 2020. He'd save about 7.55 against the cap in 2019 and 7.5 in 2020 even though the extra year of dead cap since his salary in 2020 is 13.5 million. Slice the pie the way you'd want I suppose.

Now, if Berry was 100% in on offseason surgery to fix this so-called "deformity," then I'd be all for retaining him. The fact that he didn't opt for surgery immediately in upon diagnosis this year leaves a pretty sour taste in my mouth about him.

If it's me, I cut his ass with a June 1 designation. If you can get Ford on a Clay Matthews' type of deal, then that 7.5 million would pay 2/3 of his salary over the next 2 seasons. Sure, the cap hit sucks ass but I'd rather eat shit and pay a guy that's on the field than one who doesn't do what it takes to ensure he is.
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The Pest 01:23 PM 11-15-2018
Originally Posted by Hoover:
You tag him. Keep him for another year.

That allows you a couple of things

1. Helps us deal with Houston's monster contract. I think you keep both Houston and Ford for 2019, then you can save 17.5 Million on the cap by cutting Houston after 2019.

2. If Ford delivers in 2019 then we have a difficult decision to make. Personally, I think we draft OLBs and don't hand out massive contracts like this to defensive players because the modern NFL doesn't reward defensive play.
Just keep in mind that if you tag Ford after this year and he does this again.....you've backed yourself into another Houston contract because his asking price is going to increase.
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Direckshun 01:40 PM 11-15-2018
Originally Posted by The Pest:
Just keep in mind that if you tag Ford after this year and he does this again.....you've backed yourself into another Houston contract because his asking price is going to increase.
Heh. I just made this exact argument in the other thread.

Houston and Berry both bent us over a barrel on that exact situation.
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DJ's left nut 01:47 PM 11-15-2018
Originally Posted by Hoover:
You tag him. Keep him for another year.

That allows you a couple of things

1. Helps us deal with Houston's monster contract. I think you keep both Houston and Ford for 2019, then you can save 17.5 Million on the cap by cutting Houston after 2019.

2. If Ford delivers in 2019 then we have a difficult decision to make. Personally, I think we draft OLBs and don't hand out massive contracts like this to defensive players because the modern NFL doesn't reward defensive play.
If you tag Ford you have to commit to letting him walk after 2019. Because if he has another strong year, the agent's going to peg his year 1 outlay as the 'inflated' franchise figure of about $22 million. To offer him that as a signing bonus would require a 3-4 year deal to make it palatable from a cap standpoint.

He'll be 28 next year so you'd be paying for 29-32 at a higher cost and for a year more past his prime than you want to be. Essentially you'd find yourself in the Eric Berry situation.

Once the Chiefs tagged Berry, they needed to commit to letting him walk the following year. They should have done the same with Houston - tag him once and let him walk. The Steelers should've done the same thing with Bell.

There has NEVER been as situation that has worked out well for a team that tagged a player one year then finally broke down and gave him the LTC the next season. And it's obvious that it shouldn't; it's too expensive because the baseline has shifted up and for a player that's another year older.

This is simple - if you're the Chiefs and you want him for 3-4 years after this one, you get him signed long-term and you get him signed now. If you tag him, you either trade him or you commit to having him for one more year and then letting him walk. Or you just let him walk outright now if you're not confident that he'll earn the $18 million or so that the tag will pay him next season.

Personally I'm of the mind that they should give him his 4 year deal - it's the only way the math checks out. The tag just isn't an obvious benefit anymore and it most assuredly doesn't do anything to help the cap for '19.
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RunKC 01:50 PM 11-15-2018
We have extreme cap flexibility the next 3 years. Ford is one of the best defenders in football and pass rush is the 2nd most important position on the field.

It’s worth it.
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DJ's left nut 02:11 PM 11-15-2018
Originally Posted by RunKC:
We have extreme cap flexibility the next 3 years. Ford is one of the best defenders in football and pass rush is the 2nd most important position on the field.

Itís worth it.
2.

Mahomes 5th year option will be in excess of $20 million; probably in the $24 million+ range by then.

And we need to have a weather eye on the horizon for that day. Banking about $15 million in cap rollover would sure be nice to have and be able to use in getting him extended. Obviously our plan would be to give him a new deal in lieu of that 5th year player option but the more we can load into that first season, the more he gets immediately and the more likely we are to be able to keep the AAV down a little bit.

Truth be told, he'll almost certainly get a fully guaranteed deal; that's just where the market appears to be headed for QBs. So spreading the signing bonus and pushing funds to the back of the deal and shit like that just isn't worth the trouble; it's not going to accomplish anything, IMO. Whereas if you can give him an opportunity to get more money up front and invest it as he sees fit, there's significant economic value to him there and your AAV can come down a bit.
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carcosa 04:14 PM 11-15-2018
Pay the man but structure the contract wisely
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RealSNR 06:54 PM 11-15-2018
I just don't trust him.

I'd let him walk now. Rebuild the LBs entirely. Let Houston live out his contract while Speaks and Kpassagnon (if he's even worth it) continue to make strides. Draft another dude. Use the money you're no longer paying him to get some extensions going for Hill or Jones.
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