We, the NFL, condemn racism and the systematic oppression of Black People. We, the NFL, admit we were wrong for not listening to NFL players earlier and encourage all to speak out and peacefully protest. We, the NFL, believe Black Lives Matter. #InspireChangepic.twitter.com/ENWQP8A0sv
Originally Posted by Chief Roundup:
The system is not equal. It is not about color though. It is clearly unequal when it comes to those who have wealth and money compared to those that do not have wealth and money. We have seen plenty of examples of that in what happens to a star football player, of any color, versus what would happen to a poor person of any color.
Originally Posted by stumppy:
Bottom line in the USA is a fair shake in the legal system costs money.....a lot of it.
If you don't have the kind on money it takes to hire an attorney you are screwed.
Okay - so again, not racism but a socioeconomic problem who's answer does not lay in the legal/law enforcement sphere.
Moreover, how do you intend to answer that? I don't disagree with it, but I damn sure don't have an answer for it either.
Make every public defender a 6-figure employee with a pension? And simultaneously hire twice as many so their caseloads aren't so unreal that nobody wants the job? Cap earnings in the private sector for attorneys?
You want a better building, you have to pay a better contractor. Want better food, spend more money. Want experimental treatments? Pay the freight of getting those experiments over the finish line.
How do you intend to dilute the legal system to the point that laypeople can do for themselves what other people have trained for years to get the skills to do better?
The problem is, as it has always been, an insistence on equity in outcomes. It's an impossible talking point. I will ALWAYS be a better litigator than 99.9% of people off the street. Black or white, rich or poor. And if I'm gonna do it for you - well it's my damn job, I'm gonna expect compensation in some form. I don't see me earning my livelihood as an unreasonable thing.
As you noted, the difference is poor can't hire me and rich can (well, not me - firmly middle class can hire me). That's regardless of skin color - if you can write the check you'll be represented. If you can't...well good luck w/ the Public Defenders Office.
But what's your remedy? We HAVE system in place for the indigent that we utilize to the extent the public is willing to fund it. But the vast vast VAST majority of people it defends are fucking guilty, man. Not just as a term of art, but as in 'they did the thing they were accused of'. Prosecutors don't go to trial unless they're 90% sure they're gonna win and when they're at that threshold, 99% of the time they're right. The public isn't too keen on throwing resources at criminals.
If sentencing is a person's biggest problem - don't be a criminal. Because that's the root cause here. And the squal over mandatory minimums always deflects from that fact. There was a real easy solution for the overwhelming majority that suffered adverse effects from sentencing disparities - don't commit crimes in the first place. [Reply]
When talking about class, yes money matters. But here's where class divide happens and where problems lie. If you just examine the poor of all races they have many things in common, poor education, limited opportunities, poor surroundings. But people who should have things in common and in reality stand together, oppose each other because they've been bullshitted into believing that each other is the problem.
Lyndon Johnson once said, If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you.
And you still to this day see that line of thinking in every aspect of politics from both sides and how we end up here. [Reply]
Originally Posted by stumppy:
Bottom line in the USA is a fair shake in the legal system costs money.....a lot of it.
If you don't have the kind on money it takes to hire an attorney you are screwed.
Originally Posted by Mecca:
You are using the white theme, for shame.
Actually it's even worse....I use the mobile site out of habit :-). I just had to go to the desktop version in order to view PGMs post without it opening in a new window. [Reply]
Originally Posted by -King-:
Actually it's even worse....I use the mobile site out of habit :-). I just had to go to the desktop version in order to view PGMs post without it opening in a new window.
Originally Posted by -King-:
What are you talking about?
When you responded to DJ it response to where he had quoted me. I thought your original response was to staylor. Either way a y as DJ said you take was complete shit.
Originally Posted by Superturtle:
This thread is a microcosm of why this shit is probably never going to be solved. Can't even have a calm and peaceful discourse about it to even start to figure out a solution.
Actually the reason shit never gets solved is because peaceful discourse doesn't work anymore. Sad but true. That goes for criminal justice reform in black America just as much as it is the destruction of manufacturing and small town white America. As extreme as these populist movements left and right are they're actually the only thing that seems to be working right now. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Chief Roundup:
When you responded to DJ it response to where he had quoted me. I thought your original response was to staylor. Either way a y as DJ said you take was complete shit.
Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501:
Actually the reason shit never gets solved is because peaceful discourse doesn't work anymore. Sad but true. That goes for criminal justice reform in black America just as much as it is the destruction of manufacturing and small town white America. As extreme as these populist movements left and right are they're actually the only thing that seems to be working right now.
I posted this in DC awhile ago and took some heat for it..I'll find my original post. But yea basically peaceful protesting doesn't do anything these days.
Originally Posted by :
The problem is that people on the demonstrating side appeal to the peaceful protests that were so powerful in the 1960s when it came to the civil rights movement, but there are two key differences that have blunted any impact that peaceful protest has today:
1. While there are definitely examples today of peaceful protesters being routed by tear gas and projectiles, they are still overwhelmingly passive in most cities. Peaceful protests of the 1960s were a much more provocative image of "proper" Americans being bitten by ferocious dogs, children being beamed with firehoses, and men and women beaten with clubs mercilessly. There was no semblance of assembly when the police went into violence mode anytime black demonstrators just started walking down the road together.
2. Sheltered suburbanites, who either were ignorant of the severity of the state of race relations in the cities, were able to see for the first time this huge contrast in oppression and peaceful assembly through the TV. Showing people the gritty details of this crackdown made it much easier to gain sympathies to the cause and ultimately stronger allies who potentially wielded a larger share of influence on the government.
These two don't exist anymore and their absence, to me, makes peaceful protest a ridiculous myth. The vast majority of protests that are "peaceful" involve chanting and crowds standing against a wall of police who don't do anything but watch for hours until the powers that be tell them to disperse the crowd. Government has learned that if they don't push back too much too early, protesters will go home that night thinking they accomplished something. Authorities also use the manufactured heartfelt moments of kneeling with demonstrators, marching with demonstrators, hugging demonstrators, and speaking with demonstrators to fool naive spectators into believing that they are acting in good faith without the responsibility of actually doing anything about it. These shows of solidarity, no matter how genuine they seem, are effective in planting the idea that protesters are making a difference and swaying the opinion of their oppressors. These officers sweet-talking the crowd are the same ones that put on the gas mask at curfew.
The second point is even more important. Social media has made it virtually impossible to be sheltered from the images of the news, as average families were when they got their first TV. Any demonstrator who is currently engaging in a war of messaging by trying to gain allies is operating in a world that doesn't exist anymore. The sides have already been chosen and people are more likely today to have opinions that will not be changed, regardless of what they see and hear. Trying to sway people to the side of racial justice and police accountability by peaceful protest is not only foolish, but a waste of time when the only people who seemingly appreciate peaceful protest are the ones who don't believe the message in the first place. There is no such thing as potential allies who've never seen the effects of police brutality and can be swayed - one side sees it and thinks it's a problem; the other side sees it and thinks it's a solution. This isn't a war of messaging like it was in the 1960s because messaging has already been decided.
If change is to be accomplished in the modern era, change that attempts to regulate the authorities who don't want to be regulated, it will only be through the fear and urgency that widespread violence and civil unrest will harm those in power more than the effort of reforming institutions - and that can only be accomplished by a war of attrition, modeled after both the offensive and defensive tactics of Hong Kong, with a parallel campaign of non-violent civil disobedience. Peaceful protest today serves as one thing and one thing only: it's merely a vigil for the dead. A show of sympathy and solidarity without the force needed to effect change.
That's my original post on peaceful protesting. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Mecca:
When talking about class, yes money matters. But here's where class divide happens and where problems lie. If you just examine the poor of all races they have many things in common, poor education, limited opportunities, poor surroundings. But people who should have things in common and in reality stand together, oppose each other because they've been bullshitted into believing that each other is the problem.
Lyndon Johnson once said, If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you.
And you still to this day see that line of thinking in every aspect of politics from both sides and how we end up here.
Yup.
But you're now also walking along the real thin line of the sort of dangerous populism that has destroyed nations and yielded forms of Nationalism that become genocide.
You want to know the REAL problem, Mecca? It's people. That's all it is. It's why I'll never ever call for socialism. Because Socialism will always become ruthless authoritarianism. Because the populists uprising is invariably led by those who don't want complete equality - they want to BE the person at the top of the chain and are looking to lead the charge to overthrow a system rather than try to work through to the top of the existing one.
Man is not governed, internally or externally, by angels. And they never will be. Put women in power, minorities in power, fucking Dogs in power (okay, maybe not labs - they'll always care more about you than they care about themselves) - and those people will tilt the rules in their favor. And the more power you give 'em, the heavier they'll put their thumb on the scale.
Human nature fucks EVERYTHING up. And the only thing that will ever truly change that is the end of desire. Not of NEED mind you, but of mere want. Because even if you make a system where everyone has 3,000 sq ft on an acre with 2 cars and a chicken in every pot - somebody's gonna want 4,000 sq ft and a steak. Somebody else is gonna want vegan tofu and a tree fort. you'll always have a fight until everyone can get everything they want the instant they want it.
And to speak to that I'll direct you to Marx - who I find fascinating and prescient in a lot of ways. Here's a hint - dude didn't actually dislike capitalism. [Reply]
But you're now also walking along the real thin line of the sort of dangerous populism that has destroyed nations and yielded forms of Nationalism that become genocide.
You want to know the REAL problem, Mecca? It's people. That's all it is. It's why I'll never ever call for socialism. Because Socialism will always become ruthless authoritarianism. But the populists uprising is invariably led by those you don't want complete equality - they want to BE the person at the top of the chain and are looking to lead the charge to overthrow a system rather than try to work through to the top of the existing one.
Man is not governed, internally or externally, by angels. And they never will be. Put women in power, minorities in power, fucking Dogs in power (okay, maybe not labs - they'll always care more about you than they care about themselves) - and those people will tilt the rules in their favor. And the more power you give 'em, the heavier they'll put their thumb on the scale.
Human nature fucks EVERYTHING up. And the only thing that will ever truly change that is the end of desire. Not of NEED mind you, but of mere want. Because even if you make a system where everyone has 3,000 sq ft on an acre with 2 cars and a chicken in every pot - somebody's gonna want 4,000 acres and a steak. Somebody else is gonna want vegan tofu and a tree fort. you'll always have a fight until everyone can get everything they want the instant they want it.
And to speak to that I'll direct you to Marx - who I find fascinating and prescient in a lot of ways. Here's a hint - dude didn't actually dislike capitalism.
People are at heart lazy, greedy and frankly fucked up. If you look at any ecosystem the real cancer in them is humans... [Reply]
But you're now also walking along the real thin line of the sort of dangerous populism that has destroyed nations and yielded forms of Nationalism that become genocide.
You want to know the REAL problem, Mecca? It's people. That's all it is. It's why I'll never ever call for socialism. Because Socialism will always become ruthless authoritarianism. But the populists uprising is invariably led by those you don't want complete equality - they want to BE the person at the top of the chain and are looking to lead the charge to overthrow a system rather than try to work through to the top of the existing one.
Man is not governed, internally or externally, by angels. And they never will be. Put women in power, minorities in power, fucking Dogs in power (okay, maybe not labs - they'll always care more about you than they care about themselves) - and those people will tilt the rules in their favor. And the more power you give 'em, the heavier they'll put their thumb on the scale.
Human nature fucks EVERYTHING up. And the only thing that will ever truly change that is the end of desire. Not of NEED mind you, but of mere want. Because even if you make a system where everyone has 3,000 sq ft on an acre with 2 cars and a chicken in every pot - somebody's gonna want 4,000 acres and a steak. Somebody else is gonna want vegan tofu and a tree fort. you'll always have a fight until everyone can get everything they want the instant they want it.
And to speak to that I'll direct you to Marx - who I find fascinating and prescient in a lot of ways. Here's a hint - dude didn't actually dislike capitalism.
