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Washington DC and The Holy Land>Shooting at Garlic Festival (Gun Free Zone)
Pogue 12:52 AM 07-29-2019
Originally Posted by :
GILROY, Calif. (AP) ó Three people were killed and at least 15 others injured Sunday after a shooting that sent panicked people running at an annual food festival in Northern California. Also dead is the shooter, who used a rifle and gained entry to the packed festival by cutting through a fence to avoid the tight security, including metal detectors, police said.
Everyone at that festival was a sitting duck. Itís implied that gun free zones are supposed to protect and security will take care of any situation. Of course, we know doesnít protect everyone.
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Al Bundy 05:27 PM 07-29-2019
Originally Posted by IowaHawkeyeChief:
an armed civilian there doing it in 15 seconds... Count to 60 slowly...
Shooting wildly in to the crowd huh?
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-King- 05:34 PM 07-29-2019
Originally Posted by Just Passin' By:
Not surprisingly, you have no idea what the **** you're talking about.
Interesting point.
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Just Passin' By 05:41 PM 07-29-2019
Originally Posted by -King-:
Interesting point.
:-)

Certainly more interesting than your ridiculous analogy.
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Raiderhader 05:43 PM 07-29-2019
Originally Posted by -King-:
No, like I've already said, I support gun ownership. But there are certain settings that I think should be kept gun free zones. If you're worried about an incident, increase security/LE or make people go through metal detectors. People shouldn't have to rely on their guns to stay safe when in those settings.
Because metal detectors worked so well at this festival.... This incident is a prime example why some of us do not wish to leave our fates strictly in the hands of others - because no plan or system is unbeatable.

Originally Posted by :
By the way, let's say you're at a festival and you hear shooting... If every law abiding citizen pulls out their gun, how do you know who the shooter really is? If you shoot at the wrong person holding a gun, should you be held responsible? How do you see all this playing out?
If I see people pulling out their firearms AFTER I've heard shooting I know it's not them. If none of them start shooting at everyone around them it is a pretty safe bet that none of them are with the one already shooting. If I do see an indivdual or more shooting I'm going to be reading their movements, i.e. are they standing and shooting away like an aggressor or they crouching and attempting to take some kind of cover trying to determine just what the hell is going on? Are their faces showing confusion or purpose? The initial sound of gunfire in a situation where it is not expected will tend to put people in a momentary (or longer depending on the individual) daze of confusion. An attacker's body language and actions are likely to be entirely different as they know exactly what is going on and are on a mission.

To your question in regards to responsibility - as not just someone who carries, but as a shooter in general, I am responsible for every single round that I fire. That not only includes accidents where I intentionally shoot someone under a misguided belief that they are a threat, but also a round hitting an innocent that I was never intending to hit via pass through or ricochet incidents. I would be held accountable, hell, not only for sincere accidents, but for taking out an actual threat if I should ever have to use my pistol in a defensive situation. There would be a minimum legal process that I go through regardless of who is or is not hit. I know that up front and fully accept that responsibility.
[Reply]
Kiimosabi 05:53 PM 07-29-2019
Originally Posted by Setsuna:
This story is fake. I'm 1000% sure California is the safest place in America when it comes to gun related violence. I mean it has to be right? Right? It's certainly run by people who have a no nonsense stance on gun violence. Right?
He got the gun in Nevada, genius
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-King- 06:13 PM 07-29-2019
Originally Posted by Raiderhader:
Because metal detectors worked so well at this festival.... This incident is a prime example why some of us do not wish to leave our fates strictly in the hands of others - because no plan or system is unbeatable.



If I see people pulling out their firearms AFTER I've heard shooting I know it's not them. If none of them start shooting at everyone around them it is a pretty safe bet that none of them are with the one already shooting. If I do see an indivdual or more shooting I'm going to be reading their movements, i.e. are they standing and shooting away like an aggressor or they crouching and attempting to take some kind of cover trying to determine just what the hell is going on? Are their faces showing confusion or purpose? The initial sound of gunfire in a situation where it is not expected will tend to put people in a momentary (or longer depending on the individual) daze of confusion. An attacker's body language and actions are likely to be entirely different as they know exactly what is going on and are on a mission.

To your question in regards to responsibility - as not just someone who carries, but as a shooter in general, I am responsible for every single round that I fire. That not only includes accidents where I intentionally shoot someone under a misguided belief that they are a threat, but also a round hitting an innocent that I was never intending to hit via pass through or ricochet incidents. I would be held accountable, hell, not only for sincere accidents, but for taking out an actual threat if I should ever have to use my pistol in a defensive situation. There would be a minimum legal process that I go through regardless of who is or is not hit. I know that up front and fully accept that responsibility.
It's funny how people think they'll handle chaos scenarios calm cool and collected. Like you're going to see everyone who pulls out their guns. Like you're going to be able to differentiate which person is the shooter and which person is another civilian trying to kill the shooter. And here's the thing....even if you're able to stay calm and properly assess the situation, do you think all the other people with guns will do the same? Do you think everybody with guns there will as react calmly as you think you would?
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Frazod 06:16 PM 07-29-2019
Originally Posted by Sorry:
You think it would've happened sooner? This isn't a warzone where people go in expecting gun action.
Well, I can draw from concealment and fire an aimed, accurate shot in just over a second. Obviously that's at a range, when I'm ready to do so, so it might take a couple of extra seconds to get past the initial WTF reaction and figure out what's going on, but I've practiced enough that the drawing, aiming and firing is a muscle memory thing at this point. So maybe three to five seconds to return fire, or perhaps less if I see the guy has a weapon out before he does anything with it. Assuming I'm not one of the first people hit, I like my chances. That's the beauty of concealed carry - the shooter doesn't know that he should shoot me first. It's not like I go around wearing a t-shirt that says "armed and ready" and a MAGA hat.

Has it ever happened to me? No. Is it possible that I might freeze up? Sure, I guess. Nobody ever truly knows until it happens. But I've never froze in a pressure situation before, so I seriously doubt it.

Of course, none of this will happen if I'm at some fucking event with metal detectors and am not allowed to carry.
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Frazod 06:21 PM 07-29-2019
Originally Posted by -King-:
It's funny how people think they'll handle chaos scenarios calm cool and collected. Like you're going to see everyone who pulls out their guns. Like you're going to be able to differentiate which person is the shooter and which person is another civilian trying to kill the shooter. And here's the thing....even if you're able to stay calm and properly assess the situation, do you think all the other people with guns will do the same? Do you think everybody with guns there will as react calmly as you think you would?
All valid points. Of course, the alternative is EVERYBODY IS DEFENSELESS and the shooter gets to blast away until a cop shows up, which generally won't be in a minute. That alternative totally sucks.
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Just Passin' By 06:25 PM 07-29-2019
Originally Posted by -King-:
It's funny how people think they'll handle chaos scenarios calm cool and collected. Like you're going to see everyone who pulls out their guns. Like you're going to be able to differentiate which person is the shooter and which person is another civilian trying to kill the shooter. And here's the thing....even if you're able to stay calm and properly assess the situation, do you think all the other people with guns will do the same? Do you think everybody with guns there will as react calmly as you think you would?
Why do you think that the way to win this debate is to keep making stupid arguments? What about your life has gotten you to the point where that kind of idiocy pasts muster in your head?

In a shooting scenario, the options are "Have a way to try defending yourself" versus "Don't have a way to try defending yourself". Only a fool, or a Quaker-like arch pacifist, chooses the latter.
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Marcellus 06:26 PM 07-29-2019
Originally Posted by Titty Meat:
Marcellus must have had a PTSD flashback from the useless war he fought in and lost because he left me a very nasty rep comment
No PTSD, just a very low tolerance for losers who insult veterans for shock value because they got turned down in their attempt to join the military.
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Marcellus 06:27 PM 07-29-2019
Originally Posted by Kiimosabi:
He got the gun in Nevada, genius
Ban Nevadas?
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mac459 06:39 PM 07-29-2019
Originally Posted by -King-:
It's funny how people think they'll handle chaos scenarios calm cool and collected. Like you're going to see everyone who pulls out their guns. Like you're going to be able to differentiate which person is the shooter and which person is another civilian trying to kill the shooter. And here's the thing....even if you're able to stay calm and properly assess the situation, do you think all the other people with guns will do the same? Do you think everybody with guns there will as react calmly as you think you would?
I think I could handle it calmly. Fuck it, I would give it a try and see what happens. I will take that gamble
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Titty Meat 07:14 PM 07-29-2019
Originally Posted by Marcellus:
No PTSD, just a very low tolerance for losers who insult veterans for shock value because they got turned down in their attempt to join the military.
I wasnt dumb enough to join the military. You on the other hand.... the only time you could fight someone is with high powered weapons you got not hands Marcellus you're soft babe
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Raiderhader 07:21 PM 07-29-2019
Originally Posted by -King-:
It's funny how people think they'll handle chaos scenarios calm cool and collected. Like you're going to see everyone who pulls out their guns. Like you're going to be able to differentiate which person is the shooter and which person is another civilian trying to kill the shooter. And here's the thing....even if you're able to stay calm and properly assess the situation, do you think all the other people with guns will do the same? Do you think everybody with guns there will as react calmly as you think you would?
Where did I say that I would remain calm, cool and collected? That momentary daze of confusion would apply to me same as everyone else. And my heart rate would be off the charts the entire time. That does not mean that I have to remain mentally incapacitated throught the incident though. It is possible for someone to be terrified and still reach a certain level of self control so as to be able to properly respond to a situation. Obviously not everyone will. But of those who don't it is a pretty safe bet that most will remain inactive from fear and confusion; they will get as low as they can and freeze up there until it's over. The vast majority of those who are able to take further action have already proven a certain ability to process thoughts under fire and I like their chances not to start wildly shooting. Possible, but I do not believe it as likely as you do. My reasoning for that lies in the fact that most of us who carry take it quite seriously. Most of the world does not know or understand this because they have never taken the time to learn it. But the truth is we tend to spend more time than the average gun owner at the range. Some are active in shooting tournaments. Some take advanced firearms training specifically designed for active shooter situations and even tactical courses. Those that can't afford those types of things still put in a lot of time of mentally placing themselves in actual scenarios that have taken place and dreaming up others in an attempt to start prepairing for whatever situation they hope they never actually find themselves in while still putting in regular range time. Not to mention staying up on current laws regarding the carry and use of firearms and the legal ramifications if you should be forced to use one. I will be honest with you, conceal carry is a nuisance just in the actual carrying of the firearm. Many will discover that early on and not mess with it much after if at all. Those of us who have committed to carrying every day inspite of the fact it is a nuisance do so because we truly believe in it and as such are going to be the ones who put in the time and effort of being properly practiced/trained and menatlly prepaired. Not to mention that because we truly believe in it we don't want to do anything that would jeopordize our right; the fewer issues gun controlers have to work with in their attempt to infringe on our right the better. So if you see an individual move past that momentary moment of confusion and pull out a handgun, you can be pretty confident that they are not about to go all Hollywood shoot 'em up cowboy.

As to identifying who the actual threat is, I answered the best I could with your mostly generic scenario. I still was able to point out some tips in helping to determine the threat. And, yes, in certain more specific scenarios I might not attempt to engage at all because by time I am actually able to get from where I am to where it is going down the situation could very well be near impossible to discern. And even then, if I see someone shooting who has a family crouched down with him/her I can reasonably ascertain that they are not the threat and I should start my search in the general direction that they are firing. If you would like to give me more detailed scenarios I can give you more detailed responses. I'll take the extra practice. :-)
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Marcellus 07:23 PM 07-29-2019
Originally Posted by Titty Meat:
I wasnt dumb enough to join the military. You on the other hand.... the only time you could fight someone is with high powered weapons you got not hands Marcellus you're soft babe
Don't kid yourself sweet cheeks, if stupidity was a prerequisite you would been top of the recruiting class.
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