Anybody catch the first episode last night? Interesting background on Ho Chi Mihn. I knew some of that back story, but not all of it. The French are total assholes. I can see why the Vietnamese people hated them. Actually, my French Teacher at Mizzou was a Vietnamese guy in a wheelchair who had fought for South Vietnam in the war. He was fluent in French because his father worked for the French in Saigon.
Next chapter is on tonight. One of the American Soldiers they talked to who was a Marine went to my High School (Van Horn) in Independence. [Reply]
Maybe I'm too old school, and I've only seen three episodes so far, but the documentary seems to be very focused on Vietnam as a massive cluster****. Maybe it was; I'm not denying that. But I kind of feel like there's another side of the story, even if it turned out to be on the wrong side of history. There had to be some rational people who thought, "XXX seemed like a good idea at the time because of YYY. Obviously, we were wrong, but here's our thinking."
It's coming across a little bit like the drafting of Joe Montana. In hindsight, every scout and GM in the league wanted to draft Joe Montana and pushed for it. I'm hearing that everyone in America knew the problems in Vietnam and wanted to end it. I don't think that was the case. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Amnorix:
My memory on this is that there was ALOT of smoke, but not alot of fire, in the sense of verification that this happened. Has there been any newly discovered evidence that Nixon did in fact undermine the Paris peace talks?
there are wiretaps of the conversations and recordings of Johnson talking about Nixon being a traitor to the Republican head of the Senate. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Amnorix:
Wait, you're focused on KENNEDY?!? Are you f'ing serious? You do know when he was shot, right?
He still had an opportunity to end it before that massive troop build up. He chose to keep "advisors" in country and his dream of a second presidency alive instead.
All three Presidents had their hands in the American presence there.
I guess the Kennedy thing just caught me off guard because I had always heard that had he not been assassinated, he would have likely pulled us out of Vietnam.
Last nights episode convinced me that, as crazy as all of the current protesting and mayhem these days seems... its but a drop in the bucket compared to that era
Things were well and truly out of control back then, like the idiots in Greenwich Village who made a bomb powerful enough to level a large brick apartment building [Reply]
Best part of tonights episode by far, has been the story of the Wall Memorial, and the vets returning to Vietnam to set things right in their own minds, and get to know their former enemies
Extremely moving, and hopeful... my allergies are flaring up again [Reply]
When I was in grade school, a family from Missouri moved into our tiny community. They had a son in the Marines, and he was KIA, 3 March, 1966. His sister was in my class. They chose to bury him at the local cemetery, but the family moved on. Ever since then, the American Legion post has cared for his grave.
His name always stuck with me for some reason. When I vacationed in D.C., I went to the Vietnam Memorial and found his name. I had a patch made for my motorcycle vest with his name and D.O.B. and date he died. I try to never forget his sacrifice. He was 18 yrs old. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Easy 6:
Best part of tonights episode by far, has been the story of the Wall Memorial, and the vets returning to Vietnam to set things right in their own minds, and get to know their former enemies
Extremely moving, and hopeful... my allergies are flaring up again
That entire series had me teary eyed. The entire series was incredibly well done. And the reconciliation of opposing soldiers is always a beautiful humane moment. [Reply]
Originally Posted by WilliamTheIrish:
That entire series had me teary eyed. The entire series was incredibly well done. And the reconciliation of opposing soldiers is always a beautiful humane moment.
America always eventually turns to friendship with our former war adversaries
US aircraft carriers will now be making port calls in Vietnam, and they have also sought our help vs China on the world stage
Originally Posted by AssEaterChief:
He still had an opportunity to end it before that massive troop build up. He chose to keep "advisors" in country and his dream of a second presidency alive instead.
All three Presidents had their hands in the American presence there.
I guess the Kennedy thing just caught me off guard because I had always heard that had he not been assassinated, he would have likely pulled us out of Vietnam.
This just debunks that in my mind.
I have mostly heard this in connection with conspiracy theorists who suggest that the CIA was behind Kennedy's assassination. I have never seen/heard any real evidence that Kennedy would have pulled us out. Given his stance on Communism in general, and his general hard-line attitude (see Missile Crisis, Cuba), I'm very skeptical.
BUT that does not necessarily mean he would have escalated it just like Johnson. Maybe he would have, but we'll never know. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Rain Man:
Maybe I'm too old school, and I've only seen three episodes so far, but the documentary seems to be very focused on Vietnam as a massive cluster****. Maybe it was; I'm not denying that. But I kind of feel like there's another side of the story, even if it turned out to be on the wrong side of history. There had to be some rational people who thought, "XXX seemed like a good idea at the time because of YYY. Obviously, we were wrong, but here's our thinking."
It's coming across a little bit like the drafting of Joe Montana. In hindsight, every scout and GM in the league wanted to draft Joe Montana and pushed for it. I'm hearing that everyone in America knew the problems in Vietnam and wanted to end it. I don't think that was the case.
I think the best explanation for the "other side" is literally inertia, or gravitational pull, or whatever you want to call it.
1. Communism is bad
2. We must prevent the spread of Communism / domino theory
3. We're the f'ing United States, and this is some piss-ant, third world country.
From there it was nothing more than egos, political calculations, and an unshakable belief that we could not lose.
You also need to understand that when China went Communist, and that was only 15 - 20 years earlier -- there was MASSIVE fallout across government. Hearings were held where CongressShits literally questioned whether George C. Marshall -- one of the greatest Americans ever -- was a traitor for "losing China." The State Department was under fire for years for being perceived as "full of Commie sympathizers".
Add to that the House UnAmerican Activities Committee, McCarthyism and the general insanity that pervaded government when it came to Communism and you have really removed the foundations for RATIONAL decision-making when it comes to whether or not to "stand against Communism." In that atmosphere, bureaucrats, like any rational human being, will err on the side of self-preservation.
Originally Posted by Easy 6:
Last nights episode convinced me that, as crazy as all of the current protesting and mayhem these days seems... its but a drop in the bucket compared to that era
Unfortunately I believe we are working that way [Reply]
Originally Posted by Amnorix:
I think the best explanation for the "other side" is literally inertia, or gravitational pull, or whatever you want to call it.
1. Communism is bad
2. We must prevent the spread of Communism / domino theory
3. We're the f'ing United States, and this is some piss-ant, third world country.
From there it was nothing more than egos, political calculations, and an unshakable belief that we could not lose.
You also need to understand that when China went Communist, and that was only 15 - 20 years earlier -- there was MASSIVE fallout across government. Hearings were held where CongressShits literally questioned whether George C. Marshall -- one of the greatest Americans ever -- was a traitor for "losing China." The State Department was under fire for years for being perceived as "full of Commie sympathizers".
Add to that the House UnAmerican Activities Committee, McCarthyism and the general insanity that pervaded government when it came to Communism and you have really removed the foundations for RATIONAL decision-making when it comes to whether or not to "stand against Communism." In that atmosphere, bureaucrats, like any rational human being, will err on the side of self-preservation.
It's all so goddamn tragic.
I went to bible camp for a week in 1972 in the Arkansas wilderness. It was a beautiful place. Caves, streams, mountains. Nice barracks for us to sleep. Thats where the idyllic envitnment stopped.
Males and females were not allowed to touch each other, not even accidentally. You lost privileges if it happened. I grew up poor and it was free. So this was my families only option.
I remember watching a movie about communism in a beautiful cave. Way over the top propaganda. They showed us some images from war, atrocities commuted by commies. Really bad images kids shouldn't be seeing. Mulitple dead bodies, tortured people, people being shot etc. Facts and figures that showed obviously that communism is the worst thing to ever happened to humanity. After the film some guy who escaped Russia told us more about the horrors he had suffered and witnessed under the commies. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Easy 6:
Last nights episode convinced me that, as crazy as all of the current protesting and mayhem these days seems... its but a drop in the bucket compared to that era
Things were well and truly out of control back then, like the idiots in Greenwich Village who made a bomb powerful enough to level a large brick apartment building
Originally Posted by ptlyon:
Unfortunately I believe we are working that way
And this time around, the impetus isn't the righteous anger over shattered preconceptions, or the vision of a better, more just world.
It's addiction to the thrill of the thought of rebooting activist culture.
Instead of seeing an injustice and acting valiantly. They're reading the Cliff's Notes of history and going out to find something they can brand injustice to relive the old stories.
