Originally Posted by Megatron96:
Here are the facts: Mecole is a second-year WR, a WR4, who came to the team having only played a couple seasons as a WR in college. In other words, he's still pretty raw in terms of experience. And in spite of the fact that we've all seen the clips of him working on his craft this preseason, he hasn't had the coaching he might've had if this had been a normal preseason with OTAs, a real mini-camp, preseason games, etc. So his learning curve has taken a little bump for 2020.
And let's not forget that even Tyreek had his issues with beating man press coverage early in his career. In fact, if you go back and look at his performances from his second year vs. his third, you can see the development he made specifically against man press coverages. Mecole still has to make that leap.
But I've said this before for not only Mecole but several other players: it takes time for any player to fully grasp Andy Reid's playbook. Let's not forget that Andy's receivers have to learn not only their route-trees, but the route trees for every receiver in the play, in every play in the book. About two to three full seasons seems to be about average, and Mecole is only starting his second season as a Chief.
Now, on Thursday HOU played a lot of man press and focused on containing Hardman, something that a novice receiver is just going to have trouble with, the fact that Mecole doesn't have the total experience necessary to make adjustments on his own, and that he's just not a great route-runner yet, and it's not as surprising that he only saw one target.
Mecole was on the field for 19 snaps out of the Chiefs 67 offensive snaps for the game. That's about what I predicted he'd see on average for the season per game, which is up about 5-6 snaps over his average from last season.
Which is actually more than one might expect on Thursday, considering that the Chiefs only had 9 possessions throughout the game. That was a product of the fact that both teams tried to milk the clock during their respective possessions resulting in about 2-3 fewer possessions by each team, judging from their averages last season.
So by the numbers it really looks like Andy tried to get Mecole on the field, to get him as many snaps as he could.
D. Robinson, on the other hand, is a veteran NFL receiver, who's been in Andy's system for a while now, and knows the playbook about as well as anyone's going to know it at this point. And what I mean is that Robinson knows the route trees for every receiver on every play in the book, which Hardman probably hasn't committed to muscle memory yet. Plus, Robinson is just a better route-runner than Mecole at this point, the benefit of having a lot more experience at the position both in college and the NFL. Another advantage that DRob has over Mecole at this point is chemistry with his QB. DRob has been playing/practicing with Mahomes for several years, where Mecole has had just the one full season. So DRob has a much more intuitive feel for what to do when things go sideways and he has to improvise. Mecole just doesn't have that experience yet. And finally Robinson simply a better blocker.
All of that said, I still think Hardman is going to have a big year, that we can't judge anything from a single game, and that he's going to be a major contributor for the team for years to come.
But we're just going to have to be patient this year.
I think you are using the route tree in the wrong context. The route tree is pretty much the same from pop-warner up the NFL. It makes play calling in the huddle fluid and familiar. I think you meant Mecole has to familiarize with playing different positions- X and Z mainly depending on packaging. Andy does have unique plays that are clearly designed with just two progressions, so mecole does indeed need to fully memorize in case Reek or another receiver goes down. [Reply]
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
Missing on McLauren will sting - he's just a letter perfect X in this system.
Would've made Watkins unnecessary and an easy replacement for him in the long-haul.
But Hardman can/will be a weapon in his own right. Will he ever ascend to the X role? Remains to be seen - not sure he'll ever be a precise enough route runner for that job, but there's time yet.
We're only 3 or 4 years removed from the 'you don't know what you have in a WR until year 3' era. It was just commonly accepted that guys take some time to develop at that position.
Recently that hasn't been the case, but it's still a reasonable timeline. If Hardman's capable of taking another step forward in year 3, that'll be just fine. If he's never anything more than he was last year, that's STILL better than what many/most teams will get out of their 2nd rounder.
The only real negative you can hang on him is that he's not McLauren but that's just not a fair game to play.
I like McLaurin a lot, but he didn’t fit what we needed at the time. Keep in mind the Chiefs knew about Tyreek’s predicament so they were absolutely locked in to getting a guy who does what Tyreek can.
Mecole was an excellent returner with elite straight line speed (admittedly said he’s closer to 4.27 than his 4.33 time at the combine) but the major difference to me was their 3 cone times. McLaurin had above a 7 second time while Hardman had a 6.75 second time which is significantly better lateral agility.
I’d consider anything at 7 or more to be below average lateral agility while anything below 6.8 to be above average lateral agility.
I think they just locked in and said “**** we have to get someone with skills like Tyreek To be able to have an adequate replacement.”
They probably didn’t care about McLaurin for those reasons, and keep in mind that at the time Tyreek’s feet were in the fire more than any other time during that investigation. Lot of people thought he was gone and Veach probably worked with the idea that he was going to be gone so that he had the worst possible situation in mind.
Assuming that was their mindset, they would be thinking to extend Sammy with that money they didn’t have to pay to Tyreek. [Reply]
Robinson is just weird. The dude is capable of amazing plays, but sometimes he just looks ****in worthless.
That's an amazing catch. Not a lot of recievers can pull that off. But then the dude will proceed to drop a pass that an 8 year old could grab. I have no idea. [Reply]
Originally Posted by OKchiefs:
I hope you're right. My main concern is that we seem to have way too many 2nd round picks who come in extremely raw and end up taking sometimes taking 2-3 years to realize their potential. K-pass seems to finally have shown something in year 3, and now in year 4 is starting. I'm hoping Mecole Hardman is on a quicker learning curve than that. It's looking like Gay is going to take a while to get up to speed. Juan Thornhill is the obvious outlier, he's been a baller from just about the very beginning. Maybe I'm off on this, but I just feel like 2nd round picks should be able to take a starting spot sooner than later.
Less than 1/2 the 2nd round picks taken become starters at ALL during their rookie contract.
Just expecting a 2nd rounder to become a starting player in his 1st year is unreasonable. Really, expecting him to become one at all is asking far more than is ordinary.
Hardman's development curve is fine. He came from a system that didn't ask him to do much and did very little to refine his technical skills. It will take a year for him to understand what those are and another year for them to become second nature.
Things are progressing as reasonably as one could expect - more quickly than most, in fact. [Reply]
Originally Posted by RunKC:
I like McLaurin a lot, but he didn’t fit what we needed at the time. Keep in mind the Chiefs knew about Tyreek’s predicament so they were absolutely locked in to getting a guy who does what Tyreek can.
Mecole was an excellent returner with elite straight line speed (admittedly said he’s closer to 4.27 than his 4.33 time at the combine) but the major difference to me was their 3 cone times. McLaurin had above a 7 second time while Hardman had a 6.75 second time which is significantly better lateral agility.
I’d consider anything at 7 or more to be below average lateral agility while anything below 6.8 to be above average lateral agility.
I think they just locked in and said “**** we have to get someone with skills like Tyreek To be able to have an adequate replacement.”
They probably didn’t care about McLaurin for those reasons, and keep in mind that at the time Tyreek’s feet were in the fire more than any other time during that investigation. Lot of people thought he was gone and Veach probably worked with the idea that he was going to be gone so that he had the worst possible situation in mind.
Assuming that was their mindset, they would be thinking to extend Sammy with that money they didn’t have to pay to Tyreek.
I don't disagree. They thought they were about to have a leg kicked out from under their stool and did they best they could to try to approximate it in the draft.
I think Hardman was exactly what you're suggesting he was - a replacement for Hill w/ Hill's money likely earmarked for Hardman. Brooke Pryor rat-fucked us a bit here.
I'm not blaming Veach for anything here (though I did say I wanted Mclaurin at the time, even w/ the Hill stuff - my philosophy was that you can't replace Hill so don't try). I'm just saying that McLaurin suuuuuuure would've been a nice fit here long-term knowing what we know now about Hill.
Originally Posted by Mahomes_Is_God:
Robinson is just weird. The dude is capable of amazing plays, but sometimes he just looks ****in worthless.
That's an amazing catch. Not a lot of recievers can pull that off. But then the dude will proceed to drop a pass that an 8 year old could grab. I have no idea.
Yep. I said that the other day, too. For every mind-numbing drop he has, he also has a mind-boggling catch. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Megatron96:
Offense, especially Andy's version of it, is always going to be harder to become proficient in than defense. Defense is a lot more about reading and reacting; offense is more about memorization and less about instincts.
And Mecole night never 'blossom' into the Tyreek-type of player we all want him to be. But in this system, with Andy as his coach and Hill as his mentor, IMO he has the absolute best opportunity to reach his potential.
And I think Hardman is progressing. His footwork off the line looked a little better to me than it did last season. He's taking less false steps. That should translate into faster get-off at the snap. But right now everything for him is about having to think about what he has to do, with the route, his footwork, his hand-fighting, and so on. That mental processing is slowing him down. It has to become reflex for him to truly exploit his speed and quickness. And that's just going to take some time. And several hundred game snaps.
That's where the loss of those preseason games is really hurting his progress. But I think by week 5-6 we'll start noticing his improvement, because I really think he's been working his ass off trying to get better.
We had a whole thread 'round here talking about Adams/Jones, etc... and there were a few people who thought Adams was a #2 receiver.
Man - watch that guy's feet. They may be the best in the business. He was at it again on Sunday - he's just impossible to get your hands on at the line because he does so much with his feet that you can't prepare for what he's gonna do.
He puts on a clinic every week with that kind of stuff. He's a textbook example of how many little things WRs have to do well to be truly versatile. The position is so much harder than "be tall, run fast, catch with your hands..." [Reply]
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
We had a whole thread 'round here talking about Adams/Jones, etc... and there were a few people who thought Adams was a #2 receiver.
Man - watch that guy's feet. They may be the best in the business. He was at it again on Sunday - he's just impossible to get your hands on at the line because he does so much with his feet that you can't prepare for what he's gonna do.
He puts on a clinic every week with that kind of stuff. He's a textbook example of how many little things WRs have to do well to be truly versatile. The position is so much harder than "be tall, run fast, catch with your hands..."
Mecca and Detoxing definitely need to watch yesterday’s game since they don’t think Adam’s is a top 10 WR. [Reply]
It's also possible that Andy is holding back Mecole to unleash him on teams like the Ravens, New England, and Buffalo. They don't need him to easily beat Houston or Chargers. He was a difference maker last year in both the New England and Baltimore games. When an elite defense does a great job covering all your top guys, Mecole's speed can be a major difference going against one of the weaker secondary guys on these teams. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Aspengc8:
I think you are using the route tree in the wrong context. The route tree is pretty much the same from pop-warner up the NFL. It makes play calling in the huddle fluid and familiar. I think you meant Mecole has to familiarize with playing different positions- X and Z mainly depending on packaging. Andy does have unique plays that are clearly designed with just two progressions, so mecole does indeed need to fully memorize in case Reek or another receiver goes down.
Probably. Wrote that entirely without the benefit of coffee. Though some of the routes I've seen by Andy's Chiefs don't look like anything I ever saw in Pop Warner.But that was 40 years ago, so maybe PW got a lot more professional-looking.
Whatever. My point was that every receiver in Andy's offense has to learn every other receiver's patterns for every play in the playbook. And it's more than just in case a player goes down with an injury. Andy will run the same plays with receivers at different positions.
For example, I believe in the week 14(?) Patsies game, we saw a version of the WASP with Hardman running Hill's route, while Hill ran something else on the far side of the field. And I believe we saw another version of it in 2018 with Robinson (I think) running Watkins' route.
Anyway, that's part of Andy's design, as far as I can tell without full-diving into each passing play from every game over the last 3 years. Andy will design very similar plays with the receivers lined up in other positions than they were running weeks, months or years ago. It's a nasty bit of legere-de-main by Ried, because not only does he run several different plays from the same play design, but he also moves the skill guys around in the play to make things even more confusing for defenses. [Reply]
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
We had a whole thread 'round here talking about Adams/Jones, etc... and there were a few people who thought Adams was a #2 receiver.
Man - watch that guy's feet. They may be the best in the business. He was at it again on Sunday - he's just impossible to get your hands on at the line because he does so much with his feet that you can't prepare for what he's gonna do.
He puts on a clinic every week with that kind of stuff. He's a textbook example of how many little things WRs have to do well to be truly versatile. The position is so much harder than "be tall, run fast, catch with your hands..."
Yeah, Adams is elite in all respects. His footwork and hand-fighting are among the best in the league eight now. He just doesn't waste steps and he blows right through defender's attempts to hand-check him.
Footwork is where I thought Metcalf would have trouble last season. His footwork is sloppy and specifically it's very wide, which slows him down. I liked Hardman's more compact footwork at the break a lot better before last season started. And I still think it will be easier for Hardman to progress down the line than it will be for DK. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Megatron96:
Yeah, Adams is elite in all respects. His footwork and hand-fighting are among the best in the league eight now. He just doesn't waste steps and he blows right through defender's attempts to hand-check him.
Footwork is where I thought Metcalf would have trouble last season. His footwork is sloppy and specifically it's very wide, which slows him down. I liked Hardman's more compact footwork at the break a lot better before last season started. And I still think it will be easier for Hardman to progress down the line than it will be for DK.
Metcalf is so big he doesn't have to be perfect, he can outrun you in a straight line then high point the ball and you're fucked. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Mecca:
Metcalf is so big he doesn't have to be perfect, he can outrun you in a straight line then high point the ball and you're ****ed.
He's so big he runs over a lot of DBs, part of the inherent advantage of being 30+ lbs. heavier than most NFL DBs. It's like he's playing bump-and-run in reverse. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Megatron96:
Yeah, Adams is elite in all respects. His footwork and hand-fighting are among the best in the league eight now. He just doesn't waste steps and he blows right through defender's attempts to hand-check him.
Footwork is where I thought Metcalf would have trouble last season. His footwork is sloppy and specifically it's very wide, which slows him down. I liked Hardman's more compact footwork at the break a lot better before last season started. And I still think it will be easier for Hardman to progress down the line than it will be for DK.
Now you're getting into the whole floor vs. ceiling debate.
DK Metcalf looks good now but will he ever be better? Is he already at his ceiling?
Sure, it would be nice if Hardman were great right now but do we really need him to be with Reek, Sammy, Kelce, etc.? If Hardman really emerges a couple of years from now and Reek falls off a cliff for some reason, we'll be much better for it. [Reply]
Originally Posted by htismaqe:
Chris Jones was a 2nd-rounder. :-)
Juan Thornhill as well.
For all the bitching about second rounders, I think we've done alright if we stack the Chiefs up against other teams.
And while Mecole may never be a 'star', he can be a big time playmaker in this offense and his skillset will be very useful to the Chiefs offense going forward. [Reply]
