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The Lounge>***Official 2020 STL Cardinals Thread***
BigRedChief 01:21 PM 02-13-2020
2020 Opening Day Lineup

Spoiler!


For the new Cardinal fans that joined the Planet since last year.....
2019 Thread
https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=320239
2018 Thread
https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=312812
2012 Thread
https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=254619
etc.
All the way back to 2006 WS
https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=312812
[Reply]
BigRedChief 08:13 PM 06-17-2020
WTF are they doing?

One thing that “the purists” are gonna hate:

The owners have proposed being able to sell commercial advertisements on uniforms for 2020 and 2021.

Again, it’s in the proposal, which as many have reported is not a done deal.

— Trevor Plouffe (@trevorplouffe) June 18, 2020

[Reply]
VAChief 08:22 AM 06-18-2020
Originally Posted by BigRedChief:
How you guys feel about going DH from now on?

I hate the DH, it is tantamount to having a designated free throw shooter for Shaq, but since there is no way it will be taken away from the AL, it just makes sense to make it uniform.
[Reply]
DJ's left nut 08:46 AM 06-18-2020
Originally Posted by BigRedChief:
How you guys feel about going DH from now on?

Pretty stoked to see a game that has become all about HRs and strikeouts add a fat guy who's not even coordinated enough to man 1b. Thank GOD we could find a home for Matt Carpenter.

This game has gotten so bad, so fast over the last 5 years that I just can't bring myself to give a shit. But/for a couple of dynasty teams I've had for 10 and 20 years respectively, I'd probably walk away from the game altogether.

Its objectively boring at this point. There's little true action. Athleticism is not rewarded on a large enough scale to be sought after anymore, nor is craft.

It's all about throwing hard and swinging harder. This style of game is undeniably efficient but it's aesthetically trash. And when you take away one more element that requires thought and execution and replace it with just another dude that swings hard....ugh.
[Reply]
VAChief 11:34 AM 06-18-2020
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
Pretty stoked to see a game that has become all about HRs and strikeouts add a fat guy who's not even coordinated enough to man 1b. Thank GOD we could find a home for Matt Carpenter.

This game has gotten so bad, so fast over the last 5 years that I just can't bring myself to give a shit. But/for a couple of dynasty teams I've had for 10 and 20 years respectively, I'd probably walk away from the game altogether.

Its objectively boring at this point. There's little true action. Athleticism is not rewarded on a large enough scale to be sought after anymore, nor is craft.

It's all about throwing hard and swinging harder. This style of game is undeniably efficient but it's aesthetically trash. And when you take away one more element that requires thought and execution and replace it with just another dude that swings hard....ugh.
Watched part of game 7 of the 1971 WS the other day between the Orioles and Pirates, it was startling to see the difference in what the game was and has become. The pitchers took better at bats in that game that what sometimes you see now.

Now some of what we know now is better as our statistical analysis has improved, but in general the game was quicker paced, balls were in play and amazingly there were still runs being scored.

Side note: Steve Blass pitched that game, looked like he had stuff that could still deal today...that was about a year and half removed from when he got the yips (ala Ankiel).
[Reply]
DJ's left nut 11:48 AM 06-18-2020
Originally Posted by VAChief:
Watched part of game 7 of the 1971 WS the other day between the Orioles and Pirates, it was startling to see the difference in what the game was and has become. The pitchers took better at bats in that game that what sometimes you see now.

Now some of what we know now is better as our statistical analysis has improved, but in general the game was quicker paced, balls were in play and amazingly there were still runs being scored.

Side note: Steve Blass pitched that game, looked like he had stuff that could still deal today...that was about a year and half removed from when he got the yips (ala Ankiel).
Can you imagine how much fun someone like Harrison Bader would be in the late 80s? Dude would've been Van Slyke but faster.

Instead he does nothing but lift, swings uphill, strikes out a ton, get pissed at people who question his breaking ball recognition and never learned how to run the bases nearly as well as his speed dictates he should.

So instead of Van Slyke he's on his way to being Laynce Nix. Fun.
[Reply]
VAChief 12:10 PM 06-18-2020
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
Can you imagine how much fun someone like Harrison Bader would be in the late 80s? Dude would've been Van Slyke but faster.

Instead he does nothing but lift, swings uphill, strikes out a ton, get pissed at people who question his breaking ball recognition and never learned how to run the bases nearly as well as his speed dictates he should.

So instead of Van Slyke he's on his way to being Laynce Nix. Fun.
Absolutely, but those late 80's teams were an example of the team approach greater than the individual parts. Speed as a weapon is diminished if those batting behind you aren't putting balls in play either. It wasn't just about stealing bases on those teams it was the runs they put together by taking at bats to advance runners. Just constantly putting pressure on teams to make plays. OPS and power numbers were nothing special on those teams with usually the singular exception of a Jack Clark, yet they scored runs.
[Reply]
DJ's left nut 01:18 PM 06-18-2020
Originally Posted by VAChief:
Absolutely, but those late 80's teams were an example of the team approach greater than the individual parts. Speed as a weapon is diminished if those batting behind you aren't putting balls in play either. It wasn't just about stealing bases on those teams it was the runs they put together by taking at bats to advance runners. Just constantly putting pressure on teams to make plays. OPS and power numbers were nothing special on those teams with usually the singular exception of a Jack Clark, yet they scored runs.
Just make the goddamn fields bigger. It's clear as day.

Make the fields bigger and you'll take away those cheap moonshots that are mis-hit and sneak out anyway. Push CF out to about 435 and LF/RF to about 360.

You've encouraged two things: 1) Hitters who aren't power hitters will stop overswinging because suddenly 205 lb guys won't be accidentally hitting opposite field bombs anymore. They'll have to take sound approaches and actually put bat on ball. 2) Hitters will have a TON of grass to hit at. There will be doubles and triples all over the place out there because outfielders will have a ton more ground to cover.

As a result, you know what happens? ATHLETES MATTER AGAIN!!! You'll suddenly care about having fast guys in your OF who can cover those massive gaps and get themselves far enough back to not have to play at the wall and cede singles in front of them. And then once you reward athleticism again, you'll have rosters full of fast, agile guys. And the majority of fast, agile guys aren't Mookie Betts or Mike Trout. They're 15 HR threats who's body styles should have them hitting liners and looking for extra bases or steals.

The game will be so much more exciting. You can still have guys throwing 100 mph, you'll still have genuine power hitters who can still take aim at the extended fences. But you won't have every damn utility infielder in the league with a shot at 10 bombs in a season of part-time ABs while looking like they'd struggle to hit a ball hard in slow pitch softball.

You'll have fewer homers so suddenly walks are not as critical because its still gonna take effort to get that guy on 1st home. You'll have fewer guys with short stops through the hitting zone because now a flat path through the zone rewards you with a really good chance at a single, double or even triple.

The game will just be better.

Teams move fences all the time. Only the Bosox can physically not do so because of Landsdown and even that I'm not 100% positive of. They can't get to 360 in all likelihood but if you yank the damn monster seats out of there, you can probably push it back to 340 or so.

Deadening the ball is another possibility but doesn't encourage the addition of speedsters to fill in gaps in the OF.

Obviously this will never happen because ownership thinks kids and chicks dig the long ball. But the dirty little secret is that kids and chicks largely don't give a shit about baseball unless and until they're introduced to it by their dad/boyfriend. Y'know, the crusty old 'traditionalists' like me.

You lose people like me and you can forget about the kids and women you're trying to pull in around the peripherals. And for baseballs owners, it's high time they realize that loss is closer than they think.
[Reply]
Chief Roundup 04:36 PM 06-18-2020
I am with you all. I am not a fan of the DH. It is what it is though. MLB much like the NFL realizes that most fans want to see scoring not defense and strategy. They are never going to move the fences out making for less home runs.
[Reply]
BigRedChief 12:05 AM 06-19-2020
Originally Posted by Chief Roundup:
I am with you all. I am not a fan of the DH. It is what it is though. MLB much like the NFL realizes that most fans want to see scoring not defense and strategy. They are never going to move the fences out making for less home runs.
yeah, DJ makes a good case for it but He is on drugs if he thinks MLB will ever make it harder to hit home runs.
[Reply]
duncan_idaho 07:54 AM 06-19-2020
Originally Posted by Chief Roundup:
I am with you all. I am not a fan of the DH. It is what it is though. MLB much like the NFL realizes that most fans want to see scoring not defense and strategy. They are never going to move the fences out making for less home runs.
What strategy? I see NL fans talk about this all the time, but it just doesn't exist anymore. I always found the "strategy" argument to be overrated, and modern evolution of baseball has made it even more so.

My points:

1) The decisions on whether to let the pitcher hit should ALWAYS have been straightforward and an easy call 90 percent of the time. It isn't that difficult unless you're a stone-cold moron like Mike Matheny. Same thing with the double switch. If you have a working understanding of baseball, the calls weren't hard.

2) Teams realizing you shouldn't let 90 percent of SP face a lineup the 3rd time through has made the decision even easier/more automatic.

3) Pitchers have become so bad at hitting, watching them hit is like watching an athlete from another sport try to hit. It used to be that pitchers, on average, could approximate around 60 percent of the value of a regular everyday player. Not that bad. It's down to 35-40 percent.

4) Associated with teams not letting SP go into the 3rd time through the lineup, SP just don't go as deep as they used to go. If they're getting pulled after the 5th or 6th anyway, the "strategy" of the decision is taken away.

5) For all the "strategy" that comes around letting the pitcher hit in the 5th or 6th inning, you have the 2nd, 3rd, 4th... when pitchers kill lots of rallies and also take the bat out of the 8th place hitter's hand, as well.

6) The specialization of the bullpen and extreme focus on power arms and power stuff has made pinch hitting even more challenging. PH used to be able to come in and give a quality at-bat and maybe take advantage of a tiring SP. Now, they're coming in to face a flamethrower (and possibly a flamethrower who comes in specifically to have a hand-on-hand matchup advantage, though some ability to do this will be restricted by the 3-batter minimum).
[Reply]
duncan_idaho 08:01 AM 06-19-2020
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut:
Just make the goddamn fields bigger. It's clear as day.

Make the fields bigger and you'll take away those cheap moonshots that are mis-hit and sneak out anyway. Push CF out to about 435 and LF/RF to about 360.

You've encouraged two things: 1) Hitters who aren't power hitters will stop overswinging because suddenly 205 lb guys won't be accidentally hitting opposite field bombs anymore. They'll have to take sound approaches and actually put bat on ball. 2) Hitters will have a TON of grass to hit at. There will be doubles and triples all over the place out there because outfielders will have a ton more ground to cover.

As a result, you know what happens? ATHLETES MATTER AGAIN!!! You'll suddenly care about having fast guys in your OF who can cover those massive gaps and get themselves far enough back to not have to play at the wall and cede singles in front of them. And then once you reward athleticism again, you'll have rosters full of fast, agile guys. And the majority of fast, agile guys aren't Mookie Betts or Mike Trout. They're 15 HR threats who's body styles should have them hitting liners and looking for extra bases or steals.

The game will be so much more exciting. You can still have guys throwing 100 mph, you'll still have genuine power hitters who can still take aim at the extended fences. But you won't have every damn utility infielder in the league with a shot at 10 bombs in a season of part-time ABs while looking like they'd struggle to hit a ball hard in slow pitch softball.

You'll have fewer homers so suddenly walks are not as critical because its still gonna take effort to get that guy on 1st home. You'll have fewer guys with short stops through the hitting zone because now a flat path through the zone rewards you with a really good chance at a single, double or even triple.

The game will just be better.

Teams move fences all the time. Only the Bosox can physically not do so because of Landsdown and even that I'm not 100% positive of. They can't get to 360 in all likelihood but if you yank the damn monster seats out of there, you can probably push it back to 340 or so.

Deadening the ball is another possibility but doesn't encourage the addition of speedsters to fill in gaps in the OF.

Obviously this will never happen because ownership thinks kids and chicks dig the long ball. But the dirty little secret is that kids and chicks largely don't give a shit about baseball unless and until they're introduced to it by their dad/boyfriend. Y'know, the crusty old 'traditionalists' like me.

You lose people like me and you can forget about the kids and women you're trying to pull in around the peripherals. And for baseballs owners, it's high time they realize that loss is closer than they think.
Individual teams in small markets should try this, the Royals among them.

Move the fences back out. Build your team around speed, pitching, and defense. Have a significant home park advantage, while providing an entertaining product that's fun to watch and reliant on a less sought-after type of player.

You'll take lumps on the road, of course, if you have a team really keyed and geared this way. But athletic players who hit line drives can adapt a lot better to playing in smaller parks than unathletic teams who rely on HR can adapt to playing in a cavernous field.

I think the extreme overshifting is also an issue. It further decreases the value of the speedy contact hitter because teams can position their entire IF to minimize the value of that hitter unless they have superb bat control. I don't like the idea of taking away the shift, but placing some sort of limit on it would make the game more exciting and strategic, too.

If I have a limited number of shifts to call, I'm probably not going to use one of them to cover the 5-hole on a RH contact hitter, or cover the 3.5 hold on every LH hitter.
[Reply]
Mecca 08:19 AM 06-19-2020
The MLB doesn't grasp in today's world their game is the dinosaur, young people don't care about it.
[Reply]
DJ's left nut 09:10 AM 06-19-2020
Originally Posted by duncan_idaho:
Individual teams in small markets should try this, the Royals among them.

Move the fences back out. Build your team around speed, pitching, and defense. Have a significant home park advantage, while providing an entertaining product that's fun to watch and reliant on a less sought-after type of player.

You'll take lumps on the road, of course, if you have a team really keyed and geared this way. But athletic players who hit line drives can adapt a lot better to playing in smaller parks than unathletic teams who rely on HR can adapt to playing in a cavernous field.

I think the extreme overshifting is also an issue. It further decreases the value of the speedy contact hitter because teams can position their entire IF to minimize the value of that hitter unless they have superb bat control. I don't like the idea of taking away the shift, but placing some sort of limit on it would make the game more exciting and strategic, too.

If I have a limited number of shifts to call, I'm probably not going to use one of them to cover the 5-hole on a RH contact hitter, or cover the 3.5 hold on every LH hitter.
The problem is that I'm a guy who models this team after the 85-87, which were the apex of this approach.

Excellent defense, fast runners....and Jack Clark.

You needed Jack Clark for that team to work (and that's why it didn't anymore after they foolishly let him walk).

You've got Ozzie, Pendleton, Coleman and Herr getting on base at around a .370 combined clip around him and you have him in the middle providing a credible power threat to put up the occasional crooked number you need.

Now in a 'lopsided' environment where teams aren't working with similar fields, you're going to struggle a LOT to get that big bat to play with you. So you can keep trying to draft them, but power hitters are probably the biggest boom/bust propositions that exist in the draft apart from HS pitchers.

It's gonna be pretty tough to maintain a viable pipeline of legitimate 4 hitters in the system.

Tommy Herr driving in 110 runs w/ single digit homers just doesn't happen often so you need someone that will occasionally make that 3 run swing happen with one swing and without that, you're gonna lose a lot of game 4-2.

But it's definitely what won the Royals a 'ship. I'm really not sure why more teams aren't trying to zag a bit. Wouldn't speed/defense be the new market inefficiency? Doesn't seem Beane is working those margins much so maybe I'm overstating it's potential.

But again, for me it's not about trying to locate the most efficient path to wins. I recognize that it probably isn't. For me it's more about MLB mandating that teams will try to find the most efficient ways to win within the context of a now entertaining game. That's why I've pushed the 'league mandate'. Keep everyone on the same playing field.
[Reply]
Chief Roundup 10:11 AM 06-19-2020
Originally Posted by duncan_idaho:
What strategy? I see NL fans talk about this all the time, but it just doesn't exist anymore. I always found the "strategy" argument to be overrated, and modern evolution of baseball has made it even more so.



My points:



1) The decisions on whether to let the pitcher hit should ALWAYS have been straightforward and an easy call 90 percent of the time. It isn't that difficult unless you're a stone-cold moron like Mike Matheny. Same thing with the double switch. If you have a working understanding of baseball, the calls weren't hard.



2) Teams realizing you shouldn't let 90 percent of SP face a lineup the 3rd time through has made the decision even easier/more automatic.



3) Pitchers have become so bad at hitting, watching them hit is like watching an athlete from another sport try to hit. It used to be that pitchers, on average, could approximate around 60 percent of the value of a regular everyday player. Not that bad. It's down to 35-40 percent.



4) Associated with teams not letting SP go into the 3rd time through the lineup, SP just don't go as deep as they used to go. If they're getting pulled after the 5th or 6th anyway, the "strategy" of the decision is taken away.



5) For all the "strategy" that comes around letting the pitcher hit in the 5th or 6th inning, you have the 2nd, 3rd, 4th... when pitchers kill lots of rallies and also take the bat out of the 8th place hitter's hand, as well.



6) The specialization of the bullpen and extreme focus on power arms and power stuff has made pinch hitting even more challenging. PH used to be able to come in and give a quality at-bat and maybe take advantage of a tiring SP. Now, they're coming in to face a flamethrower (and possibly a flamethrower who comes in specifically to have a hand-on-hand matchup advantage, though some ability to do this will be restricted by the 3-batter minimum).
Exactly what I was getting at there hasn't been strategy in the game in a long time.

Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk
[Reply]
DJ's left nut 10:22 AM 06-19-2020
Yeah - my answer saying is "well the game sucks now anyway so why not add the DH" is "hey, let's not play the slice here and instead try making the game NOT suck..."

Make the game something more than strikeouts, walks and HRs, and then one of two things happen - the difference is more stark when you have the pitchers hitting OR it isn't but the game is now entertaining enough that I wouldn't mind the addition of the DH to the NL.

But the game is so fucking awful right now that taking away yet another small little element that makes it less stale just makes it worse. No, a pitcher shouldn't end up facing a lineup 3 times unless he's damn good. But sometimes he's gonna be up 1st in the order next time so you can either try to get him through that inning to PH for him the next inning and start with a clean pitcher to preserve your bullpen or 2, double-switch.

The 2 'no shit' strategic moves Duncan dismisses are STILL considerations and decisions that have to be made. And it doesn't happen every game, no, but it does happen quite often - enough to make a notable difference.

You have more bunts and attempts to snag an extra base here and there when you know your pitcher is coming up. Is it efficient? No - but it's still an added element. It's something more than "just add another guy to the lineup that hunts for walks and homers while accepting strikeouts..."

It's something ELSE and I just don't understand why AL fans think it's so damn important that people who prefer NL style of baseball accept that crap. You have your thing - you don't watch our thing anyway. Why must our vision dovetail with yours? Especially when AL fans are no more likely to like this plodding shit version of the game this has developed into.

It's a bizarre sort of tribalism. Unless you're an AL fan that likes the way the game is played now vs. the way it was played a quarter century ago, I don't see how you can make a good faith argument in favor of a DH. It's just another crank of the knob towards that style of play.
[Reply]
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