It's not that by itself it wouldn't be believable. It just goes against everything we've ever seen regarding the Emperor and Sith in general. They're not the family type... [Reply]
Originally Posted by Fish:
It's not that by itself it wouldn't be believable. It just goes against everything we've ever seen regarding the Emperor and Sith in general. They're not the family type...
Maybe not in the movies but in the Clone Wars series, the Sith were definitely family. Mother Talzin, a Sith Witch, helped to heal Darth Maul's mind and created his new legs using Sith Black Magic.
She also imbibed Maul's brother Savage Oppress (dumbest name in the Star Wars Universe, for my money, anyway), with Sith powers.
While I understand that there are several concepts introduced in this film that at first mention or first thought don't make sense or don't have a foundation in the movies, the foundation does exist in other Star Wars media that has been made Canon since George sold it to Disney.
As I mentioned earlier, there have been calls for Lucasfilm to include the EU or at least aspects of the EU and for whatever reason, Abrams and Terrio listened to those voices and made them a part of this film.
Now, that doesn't mean that anyone has to like it, of course, but many of the complaints are based in the EU, even RJ's Force Astral Projection Luke was a Jedi power that appeared in the old EU. [Reply]
Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud:
Maybe not in the movies but in the Clone Wars series, the Sith were definitely family. Mother Talzin, a Sith Witch, helped to heal Darth Maul's mind and created his new legs using Sith Black Magic.
She also imbibed Maul's brother Savage Oppress (dumbest name in the Star Wars Universe, for my money, anyway), with Sith powers.
While I understand that there are several concepts introduced in this film that at first mention or first thought don't make sense or don't have a foundation in the movies, the foundation does exist in other Star Wars media that has been made Canon since George sold it to Disney.
As I mentioned earlier, there have been calls for Lucasfilm to include the EU or at least aspects of the EU and for whatever reason, Abrams and Terrio listened to those voices and made them a part of this film.
Now, that doesn't mean that anyone has to like it, of course, but many of the complaints are based in the EU, even RJ's Force Astral Projection Luke was a Jedi power that appeared in the old EU.
Talzin was a Nightsister. Not Sith, even though she used dark force powers. She actually fought against the Sith. That's completely different. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Fish:
Talzin was a Nightsister. Not Sith, even though she used dark force powers. She actually fought against the Sith. That's completely different.
She worked in concert with Sidious and as a Nightsister, knew of the Sith ways. She turned on Sidious when he took her son, Maul. But that's a different story.
Palpatine knew of his son and didn't murder him until he refused to turn over his grandaughter. So the idea that he would just "kill" his family members for no reason has no basis at this point in time.
The fact of the matter is that there is very little information available about the Sith and to just say "I don't find it believable" is an opinion, not a fact.
I personally don't find it "believable" that a man that rules a galaxy doesn't have any concubines. He IS a man, at least given his description in the Star War data bank and as far as we know, there's no rule preventing Sith from bearing children or having attachments or sex.
I've provided a few examples of powerful Force users that have no idea that their children are present, right in front of them. Snoke/Sidious had no idea who "The Girl" was in TFA, nor did he realize that Kylo Ren and Rey Palpatine were a "Force Dyad" until he had them in his grip.
To me, it's fairly evident that neither the Sith nor the Jedi or Omniscient. [Reply]
I'm just saying that parenting isn't a common trait among Sith. They're typically very selfish and cruel, obsessing over power and distrustful of everyone. Not a lot of family tales involving Sith. [Reply]
Originally Posted by Fish:
I'm just saying that parenting isn't a common trait among Sith. They're typically very selfish and cruel, obsessing over power and distrustful of everyone.
I totally get that but once it was confirmed that he was alive, Darth Vader scoured the galaxy for his son.
Originally Posted by Fish:
Not a lot of family tales involving Sith.
All the mental gymnastics are kind of pointless. The only real reason for it is that JJ decided that was how he was going to retcon her origin.
I think it's kind of silly and any number of alternatives would have been better for me. I still like the idea of Satine keeping a child secret from Obi-wan, creating potential for a Kenobi grandchild. Or Ezra and Sabine. Or pretty much any two characters not named Palpatine.
Abrams went for too many moments that were cool from the perspective of a 40+ year old who'd lived their entire lives fantasizing about the SW universe, moments that made no sense in the context of a new movie trilogy with new characters. Too much was tied to the original trilogy, and not much really survives even a cursory examination of the plot, themes, events or motivations of the final trilogy or the characters within.
That's the main issue I have with episode 9 (and 8 and 7...).
But maybe it wasn't ever possible to really do it right. [Reply]
Originally Posted by keg in kc:
All the mental gymnastics are kind of pointless. The only real reason for it is that JJ decided that was how he was going to retcon her origin.
I think it's kind of silly and any number of alternatives would have been better for me. I still like the idea of Satine keeping a child secret from Obi-wan, creating potential for a Kenobi grandchild. Or Ezra and Sabine. Or pretty much any two characters not named Palpatine.
Abrams went for too many moments that were cool from the perspective of a 40+ year old who'd lived their entire lives fantasizing about the SW universe, moments that made no sense in the context of a new movie trilogy with new characters. Too much was tied to the original trilogy, and not much really survives even a cursory examination of the plot, themes, events or motivations of the final trilogy or the characters within.
That's the main issue I have with episode 9 (and 8 and 7...).
But maybe it wasn't ever possible to really do it right.
Originally Posted by keg in kc:
But maybe it wasn't ever possible to really do it right.
George Lucas sold Lucasfilm because he was tired of being told that he was "wrong" all the time about his movies and stories.
No A-List Director wanted anything to do with the Star Wars prequels or the Star Wars sequels.
There is no "right way" to do a Star Wars film, which is why the slate has been wiped clean and Lucasfilm is focusing on TV series, which cost far less than if they spend $500 million on shooting and marketing a film that the majority of the public doesn't like or doesn't respond to positively.
Originally Posted by Fish:
I'm just saying that parenting isn't a common trait among Sith. They're typically very selfish and cruel, obsessing over power and distrustful of everyone. Not a lot of family tales involving Sith.
At the time of this discussion, I couldn't remember the source but I was reminded this morning. I know that most people don't read the Star Wars comics but they are/were part of canon:
In the Darth Plagueis novel from around that time it was inferred that she could be a problem for Darth Sidious. After the show was canceled, one of the last Dark Horse Star Wars comics Son of Dathomir hinted at some of this story. In the third issue, Talzin reveals that Sidious betrayed her and that Maul is in fact her son.
Long ago, Sidious came to me on Dathomir. We exchanged secret wisdom–mingled Dark Side abilities with Nightsister magicks.
He promised to make me his right hand, but instead he stole what was most dear to me… My own flesh and blood. My son!
---
Of course, this reveal doesn't make RoS any better (or any worse, for that matter) but it does show that Sith and Dark Siders did have affection for their offspring. [Reply]
